And now for a particularly silly notion... TANKS!!!

n7axw wrote:

Keith_w wrote:
yes this would work, until the 1st time a cannon went off over it's head, then have fun trying to control it.

They are already being used to get cannon in to position. Oviously you'd need to condition them for the experience prior to their use in battle.

Don

Did you read the description of the battle of the Markovian Sea? Over pressures and smoke and very very sharp noises. Were you aware that naval gunners often went deaf from the noise even though they tried to protect their ears? The motive dragons would be in enclosed quarters that would echo the gunfire much as a gun deck would. The field artillery dragons that moved the cannon into position were then removed from the immediate area of the cannon, as were horses, so that they were not subjected to this to as great an extent as the gunners were.

Keith_w wrote:The motive dragons would be in enclosed quarters that would echo the gunfire much as a gun deck would.

You're assuming that the "drive" enclosure and the "gun deck" of our notional tank are the same space. There is no reason they should be and the "drive" enclosure could easily be kept separate from the "gun deck" and sound proofed or insulated.

One thing that has occurred to me is that a pusher arrangement won't work for a single dragon; it has to be even numbers so the draw-bar isn't tripping the odd dragon.

Given the capacity of a draft dragon, there is no particular reason for skimping on space and/or sound-proofing.

Weird Harold wrote:

Keith_w wrote:The motive dragons would be in enclosed quarters that would echo the gunfire much as a gun deck would.

You're assuming that the "drive" enclosure and the "gun deck" of our notional tank are the same space. There is no reason they should be and the "drive" enclosure could easily be kept separate from the "gun deck" and sound proofed or insulated.

One thing that has occurred to me is that a pusher arrangement won't work for a single dragon; it has to be even numbers so the draw-bar isn't tripping the odd dragon.

Given the capacity of a draft dragon, there is no particular reason for skimping on space and/or sound-proofing.

As I understood the original idea of the war wagon, they weren't mounting cannon, they were providing cover for infantry.

Don

n7axw wrote:As I understood the original idea of the war wagon, they weren't mounting cannon, they were providing cover for infantry.

Pshaw! We're talking about TANKS! and TANKS! have cannon.

ChaChaCharms wrote:Wouldn't electricity be within it if steam is? It can still be utilized via water it is just converting the water power into stored electric power. (Or just invent the engines that run soley on water, and then you should be good to go without releasing more toxins into the air)

The Rakurai (i.e. lightning, or electricity) is explicitly prohibited in the Proscriptions. It is not possible to gloss that over. Electricity is not allowed on Safehold. And since it is explicitly mentioned in the Proscriptions, Merlin has to assume that, if anything will cause the orbital units emplaced by the Angels to do something bad, then electricity is probably one of the triggers.

There is an extensive post from David Weber in the FAQ section of this website titled 'Why can't Charis have electricity'.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:As I understood the original idea of the war wagon, they weren't mounting cannon, they were providing cover for infantry.

Pshaw! We're talking about TANKS! and TANKS! have cannon.

The specific discussion here started with the example of Hussite war wagons. If we are talking about using cannon, it seems to me that by the time you armor it and get the noise down to acceptable levels for the dragons, you probably have a structure that has too much mass for the dragons to deal with, at least for more than short periods of time.

And this doesn't even consider how utterly clumsy it would be off of a hard surface road.

If you are going to make it that big, you just as well forget the dragons and go with steam or wait until diesel is available for more reasonable sized units which is probably the sensible bottom line.

Don

n7axw wrote:The specific discussion here started with the example of Hussite war wagons. If we are talking about using cannon, it seems to me that by the time you armor it and get the noise down to acceptable levels for the dragons, you probably have a structure that has too much mass for the dragons to deal with, at least for more than short periods of time.

And this doesn't even consider how utterly clumsy it would be off of a hard surface road.

According to Wikipedia, Most war wagons featured at least hand-cannon. A Dragon is capable of hauling 40,000 pounds, IIRC; That gives around 80,000 pounds to play with because rear drive can't be done with a single dragon. That much mass to play with should allow for at least moderate armor, reasonable sound-proofing, AND one or two cannon.

As for "clumsy" I did say my opinion of most likely failure point was "steering" -- With wheels big enough for off-road capability and no power-assist, steering is going to require Popeye and a barrel of spinach, or a lot of teamwork.

FWIW, I'm arguing "possible" rather than "Practical." IMHO, There is no "practical" tank design possible within the Proscriptions.

River Monster wrote:It occurs to me that there's now nothing preventing Charis from fielding at least crude armored fighting vehicles. We have plate armor, an engine capable of propelling it, and breech-loading guns. Certainly something like a TOG or British Mark 1 is achievable. Or perhaps something like the German A7V would be a better, for some troop mobility.

(Mind you, I'm still holding out for steampunk hydrofoils.)

Another thought. If they could develop the Oil Refining, Diesel Engines, and the Machine gun. then the French Renault FT-17 is small, fast, and mobile enough to provide assistance to the ICA. Haul to battlefield by barge or wagon and you'll shock the heck out of the AOG troops. Although I must admit its more of a rolling machine gun nest than a true tank it would do the job against the human wave attacks that Harchong would bring to bear; Of course so would interlocking Machine gun fields of fire.

However, since we have no evidence of oil refining (other than whale/kracken oil for lamps), diesel engine development, or Machine guns (yet), the whole argument is completely academic.

Larry

Not sure why Charis needs tanks at this point.

They already have artillery that out ranges the church forces..

SPOILER ALERT

SPOILER ALERT











With the upcoming smokeless powder, their artillery ranges will go up once again.

You only need armor if you expect to get hit. If your out of the other guys range, your not getting hit. Also with the improved shell bursting charges and the improved mortars. Machine Guns are not as necessary.

Charis already has the mobility advantage too.

Tanks and Machine Guns are nice, but not yet necessary.

I doubt any "non-engine" motive power would suffice. After all, the concept of "land mines" has already been introduced, and a "tank" driven by harnessed dragons or horses, even inside, would have to have those animals feet directly in contact with the ground. So bury a mine and let the tank roll over it, and the metal shell would just become a "shrapnel conservation device" keeping the shrapnel ricocheting around inside.

For that matter, flaming oil or burning vegetation would probably cause problems as well.

No, the tank would have to be armored all over, including the "belly" part closest to the ground. That pretty much would require some sort of *indirect* driving mechanism; eg an engine, wheels, and/or tracks.

I don't recall ever seeing a mention as to petroleum-type oil on Safehold. Since it *did* have indigenous vegetation, prior to terraforming, it *should* have something similar (since it had coal), but as I remember the only mention of "oil" was that extracted directly from either plants or marine life; not from underground. The "gas" used for lighting was a byproduct of the coal/iron industry. So something on the order of an "internal combustion engine" probably isn't feasible at this point.

As noted, steam engines are possible; but they don't lend themselves elegantly to the solution. The weight and required volume of fuels like coal or wood would create problems; adding weight and extra enclosed volume to the vehicle (remember, you can't just reach out into the open for another shovel full of coal or a piece of wood when folks are firing at you); which, of course, then requires a bigger, stronger, and heavier engine as well. It would become a "vicious cycle".

This wasn't a consideration as far as "ironclad" ships go, since the force necessary to allow a ship to glide through water is much less than that required to create motion on dry land.