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And now for a particularly silly notion... TANKS!!!

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Re: And now for a particularly silly notion... TANKS!!!
Post by Tenshinai   » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:26 am

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Henry Brown wrote:It is not as silly a notion as you think. There have already been threads on steam tanks. Furthermore, it has been awhile but from what I recall RFC commented favorably on the subject of steam tanks in the old thread.


Yes there has, but overall the idea is very much a "well, maybe" thing.

Yes it´s doable, but steam has too many negatives for any steamtanks to be "good", and they would likely be logistical nightmares.

There´s plenty good reason why steamcars and steamtanks etc never caught on in real world history.


And in this case i believe RFC is overly optimistic, as his focus on the Doble steam engine looks heavily on the best sides while not giving its flaws enough attention.

For example, if the driver was careless while starting a Doble steam car, it could go backwards instead of forwards...
Its minimal water tank system works great, as long as all valves, piping and seals remain in perfect mint condition. Something they do at most hours or days after first use.

After that point, water loss during operation is going to be more and more noticeable.
Even at best, the Doble car was twice the weight and fuel economy of a similar car at the time, before water/steam loss becomes an issue, or water is even counted as part of the supply needed.

So, even with an optimised steam setup, a steam tank would need to use about twice the weight and four times the size of a primitive petrol engine, and at least 3 times minimum the fuel/water.
And the big kiler in that comparison is actually the size one, if you have a massive supply train you can definitely handle the fuel/water deliveries needed, a much heavier engine is bad but can be overcome by making the tank less capable...

But the increased size of the engine, and the need for water tankage(water isn´t very high density, so you probably need at least a small bathtub worth to assure enough operational range), that means you´re forced into making the tank overall bigger to accommodate, and every time you make a tank bigger, you make the armour of the tank MUCH heavier.


And to that there adds of course the trouble that is the fact that it´s much easier to build an antitank gun, than it is to make a tank heavily armoured enough to be able to resist said antitank gun.
And the extra size of the engine compounds this problem badly.
And of course, it´s going to be damned hard to have a steam tank that is quick to respond to a driver, making it easier for AT guns to kill it.

Overall, yes a steam tank is 100% possible, even potentially realistic, but the logistics to support them, probably isnt. And their effectiveness would be severely limited except under perfect conditions(which of course MIGHT stilla actually make them good enough to be worth their cost to build and use on a rare few occasions).

The series from what i get is heading towards something that might be compared to the ACW era, and not even the union forces at that time could realistically be called capable of supporting more than a handful or two of steamtanks, even if they built them(which they could have). And then only as long as they stay relatively close to a functional railroad for supplies.
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Re: And now for a particularly silly notion... TANKS!!!
Post by Tenshinai   » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:32 am

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Charles83 wrote:Tanks are a complicated proposition, I do not think that they are far enough the technology tree to be able to do reliable tanks, at best i think the level of technology they have right now is between 1850 to 1880, with very certain and specific areas that are up to world war 1 to world war 2 era, tanks and the industry to support them and make them is not yet there, a lot of pieces needed for the engine are not fully there yet.

So no I do not think they can make tanks yet.


Remember, it´s often not a matter whether someone CAN make something, but rather a matter of whether someone can make it work on an operational basis.

ACW tech is enough to build tanks, but not GOOD tanks. Or reliable tanks. And the logistics to support them, just isn´t there.
And so on. But make them, sure. :mrgreen:
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Re: And now for a particularly silly notion... TANKS!!!
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:49 am

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n7axw wrote:This is an intriguing idea. I'm trying to visualize the thing. Would you build the thing around the dragon?


Picture a small garage on wheels; herd the dragon inside and harness him.

Some horse drawn agricultural equipment used a "pusher" arrangement, and I think I've seen pictures of Horse-pushed snowplows.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: And now for a particularly silly notion... TANKS!!!
Post by n7axw   » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:45 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
n7axw wrote:This is an intriguing idea. I'm trying to visualize the thing. Would you build the thing around the dragon?


Picture a small garage on wheels; herd the dragon inside and harness him.

Some horse drawn agricultural equipment used a "pusher" arrangement, and I think I've seen pictures of Horse-pushed snowplows.


Yeah, this would probably work. The drawback to the idea would be that it would work only upon roads or very even, firm terrain, but given the road system in the Havens, it might still be worthwhile. I don't think you would want to use the thing in isolation without infantry support.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: And now for a particularly silly notion... TANKS!!!
Post by Randomiser   » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:37 am

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I think the conclusions of the last steam tanks thread was that they were doable (just) but not needed and they would be a big diversion of steel, design effort and production capacity from things that are necessary so we were unlikely to see them this war.
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Re: And now for a particularly silly notion... TANKS!!!
Post by Keith_w   » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:35 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
n7axw wrote:This is an intriguing idea. I'm trying to visualize the thing. Would you build the thing around the dragon?


Picture a small garage on wheels; herd the dragon inside and harness him.

Some horse drawn agricultural equipment used a "pusher" arrangement, and I think I've seen pictures of Horse-pushed snowplows.


yes this would work, until the 1st time a cannon went off over it's head, then have fun trying to control it.
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A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: And now for a particularly silly notion... TANKS!!!
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:50 am

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Keith_w wrote:yes this would work, until the 1st time a cannon went off over it's head, then have fun trying to control it.


The armament wouldn't have to be over its head. It would make more sense to put any cannon far forward of the rear-dragon-drive and insulate the dragon from noise and other distractions.

n7axw wrote:The drawback to the idea would be that it would work only upon roads or very even, firm terrain, ...


Big, Wide Wheels. Maybe even continuous track suspension.

My point of failure prediction would be "steering" but even that is solvable.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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TANKS for the memory!
Post by Larry   » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:51 am

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River Monster wrote:It occurs to me that there's now nothing preventing Charis from fielding at least crude armored fighting vehicles. We have plate armor, an engine capable of propelling it, and breech-loading guns. Certainly something like a TOG or British Mark 1 is achievable. Or perhaps something like the German A7V would be a better, for some troop mobility.

(Mind you, I'm still holding out for steampunk hydrofoils.)


I would think that a self propelled gun would be more useful. Lacking all that armor it's lighter if nothing else. On the other hand a steam-powered tractor to haul artillery or personnel wagons without needing all the fodder that dragons do might be a better option, and it does the double duty of being usable for farm equipment as well.
Certainly we're going to see some kind of land vehicle propelled by steam eventually, once you invent a steam engine putting wheels under it just naturally follows.
If their is sufficient iron (there's plenty of textev that the coal is there) in Siddarmark to build a rolling mill it might be a worthwhile investment to start the railroad industry there. A rail making plant there wouldn't steal from weapons production in Charis or elsewhere in the empire, it would help kick off the industrial revolution on the mainland, rail lines would provide a faster, year round transport system and it would provide a big export commodity to help bring Siddarmark's economy back online. Importing bulk rail from Siddermark to Charis and Chisholm, Tarot & Emerald would provide the high speed links that would boost all their economies. But that's probably a different thread.

What does interest me is that, as I was rereading the series for the umpityith time, I found textev for oil deposits in Charis and Emerald. And there is that one scientist (whose name is escaping my aging brain at the moment) who was interested in distillation, which mean diesel engines are possible. Now Internal combustion would be right out. It requires electrical ignition which clearly violates the proscriptions, but diesel doesn't and given benzene or kerosene you've got diesel engines and oil fired steam engines real shortly thereafter. And with those you CAN do a practical tank. Of course it would be useful to invent the machine gun first. A tank without one has no close in protection.

Just a few thoughts.

Larry
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Re: And now for a particularly silly notion... TANKS!!!
Post by n7axw   » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:53 am

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Keith_w wrote:
yes this would work, until the 1st time a cannon went off over it's head, then have fun trying to control it.


They are already being used to get cannon in to position. Oviously you'd need to condition them for the experience prior to their use in battle.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: TANKS for the memory!
Post by n7axw   » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:11 am

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Larry wrote:
River Monster wrote:It occurs to me that there's now nothing preventing Charis from fielding at least crude armored fighting vehicles. We have plate armor, an engine capable of propelling it, and breech-loading guns. Certainly something like a TOG or British Mark 1 is achievable. Or perhaps something like the German A7V would be a better, for some troop mobility.

(Mind you, I'm still holding out for steampunk hydrofoils.)


I would think that a self propelled gun would be more useful. Lacking all that armor it's lighter if nothing else. On the other hand a steam-powered tractor to haul artillery or personnel wagons without needing all the fodder that dragons do might be a better option, and it does the double duty of being usable for farm equipment as well.
Certainly we're going to see some kind of land vehicle propelled by steam eventually, once you invent a steam engine putting wheels under it just naturally follows.
If their is sufficient iron (there's plenty of textev that the coal is there) in Siddarmark to build a rolling mill it might be a worthwhile investment to start the railroad industry there. A rail making plant there wouldn't steal from weapons production in Charis or elsewhere in the empire, it would help kick off the industrial revolution on the mainland, rail lines would provide a faster, year round transport system and it would provide a big export commodity to help bring Siddarmark's economy back online. Importing bulk rail from Siddermark to Charis and Chisholm, Tarot & Emerald would provide the high speed links that would boost all their economies. But that's probably a different thread.

What does interest me is that, as I was rereading the series for the umpityith time, I found textev for oil deposits in Charis and Emerald. And there is that one scientist (whose name is escaping my aging brain at the moment) who was interested in distillation, which mean diesel engines are possible. Now Internal combustion would be right out. It requires electrical ignition which clearly violates the proscriptions, but diesel doesn't and given benzene or kerosene you've got diesel engines and oil fired steam engines real shortly thereafter. And with those you CAN do a practical tank. Of course it would be useful to invent the machine gun first. A tank without one has no close in protection.

Just a few thoughts.

Larry


As was pointed out up thread, steam is probably doable, but the logistical issues of keeping a steam tank in the field make it so that it it may well be more trouble than it's worth.

Diesel, as we know, would work fine.

Both steam and diesel are probably bending the proscrptions to a pretzel. I'm not convinced that the political issues are worse with one than they are with the other.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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