What happens if someone refuses a duel?

PalmerSperry wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:There have been some rules of dueling that allow the 2nd to step in if the primary has begun, but it unable to finish, the duel; but I'm not aware of any that let this step in before the duel starts. So you can't even hire a professional as your second, and then become injured or ill to let them fight in your place.

So professional duelers can't really work as insurance. Only as a way to attempt to murder someone by instigating a incident that can serve as a pretext to duel the target.

There is TextEv for being able to hire a professional to stand in your stead. However given the case in question was Jean Marrou who was blind, I suspect that sort of thing might be considered a special case? "And Marrou would have every reason to request a champion," Daniel Chou added. "

Hmm ... That does mean there's pretty much no chance of anyone ever challenging Emily Alexander to a duel! If you're lucky she hires a professional champion, if you're unlucky Honor Harrington insists on doing the dead!

Yeah of course the challenger also has to worry about the mobs with torches and pitchforks that start hunting for them as soon as the challenge goes public. And I suspect that a lot of on leave military personnel in the area will join the mob.

Reordered for quote limit.

Kizarvexis wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:There have been some rules of dueling that allow the 2nd to step in if the primary has begun, but it unable to finish, the duel; but I'm not aware of any that let this step in before the duel starts. So you can't even hire a professional as your second, and then become injured or ill to let them fight in your place.

So professional duelers can't really work as insurance. Only as a way to attempt to murder someone by instigating a incident that can serve as a pretext to duel the target.

PalmerSperry wrote:
There is TextEv for being able to hire a professional to stand in your stead. However given the case in question was Jean Marrou who was blind, I suspect that sort of thing might be considered a special case? "And Marrou would have every reason to request a champion," Daniel Chou added. "

Hmm ... That does mean there's pretty much no chance of anyone ever challenging Emily Alexander to a duel! If you're lucky she hires a professional champion, if you're unlucky Honor Harrington insists on doing the dead!

You don't hire a professional, you 'ask' them to be your second. The second does the duel if you don't.

First: professionals are illegal (remember, that comes up about Summervale - if Honor could prove he was paid, or if the Marines had been able to prove it, he would have been tried and executed for murder).

Second: there really isn't any information on champions. I suspect you can't just 'ask' them to be your second, and have them fight the duel. My impression (which, of course, could easily be wrong) is that the seconds just arrange the duel (kind of like talking through lawyers, for divorcing/divorced couples). I would guess that champions aren't paid (except health insurance, possibly).

akira.taylor wrote:
First: professionals are illegal (remember, that comes up about Summervale - if Honor could prove he was paid, or if the Marines had been able to prove it, he would have been tried and executed for murder).

Second: there really isn't any information on champions. I suspect you can't just 'ask' them to be your second, and have them fight the duel. My impression (which, of course, could easily be wrong) is that the seconds just arrange the duel (kind of like talking through lawyers, for divorcing/divorced couples). I would guess that champions aren't paid (except health insurance, possibly).

I found this on pbs.org. The History of Dueling in America The code for dueling was linked there. Rule 14 had this to say.

Rule 14. Seconds to be of equal rank in society with the principals they attend, inasmuch as a second may either choose or chance to become a principal, and equality is indispensible.

If Honorverse dueling uses similar rules, then the seconds can take over from the principles.

I can think of one case where a professional duelist could be used. As a stand in for the old North Hollow for example. Maybe professional second is a better term.

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Annachie wrote:I can think of one case where a professional duelist could be used. As a stand in for the old North Hollow for example. Maybe professional second is a better term.

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Queen's Gambit in the anthologies lists one allowance for a "Champion" in dueling. Jean Moreau the blind conspirator.

kenl511 wrote:

Annachie wrote:I can think of one case where a professional duelist could be used. As a stand in for the old North Hollow for example. Maybe professional second is a better term.

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Queen's Gambit in the anthologies lists one allowance for a "Champion" in dueling. Jean Moreau the blind conspirator.

With the senior Lord North Hollow being an invalid in a Wheel Chair and on oxygen, I would assume that such a rule would apply to him as well.

My question would be why would the Honorable party to the duel even challenge someone who is dishonorable especially when you know they will not accept the challenge. They are not worried about public shame since it is common knowledge that they do not keep their word or are unethical and a coward. Challenging a corrupt politician comes to mind, one whose word in always suspect or downright a lie, and unethical... Just a thought. Then again accidents do happen even to bad people...

Theemile wrote:

kenl511 wrote:Queen's Gambit in the anthologies lists one allowance for a "Champion" in dueling. Jean Moreau the blind conspirator.

With the senior Lord North Hollow being an invalid in a Wheel Chair and on oxygen, I would assume that such a rule would apply to him as well.

Or else physical disability might be considered honorable grounds for refusing a duel.

Senior Chief wrote:My question would be why would the Honorable party to the duel even challenge someone who is dishonorable especially when you know they will not accept the challenge. They are not worried about public shame since it is common knowledge that they do not keep their word or are unethical and a coward. Challenging a corrupt politician comes to mind, one whose word in always suspect or downright a lie, and unethical... Just a thought. Then again accidents do happen even to bad people...

Public Shame isn't necessary for the individual, it can also be aimed at influencing those around them. In a setting like the Manticorian house of lords, it could diminish one's power, as others refuse to be seen associating with such a an individual. Even though they know about someone's personality, such happenings have a tendency to sway people's opinions when they are on the fence. Enough such happenings will diminish the individual's political power and standing.

Theemile wrote:

Senior Chief wrote:My question would be why would the Honorable party to the duel even challenge someone who is dishonorable especially when you know they will not accept the challenge. They are not worried about public shame since it is common knowledge that they do not keep their word or are unethical and a coward. Challenging a corrupt politician comes to mind, one whose word in always suspect or downright a lie, and unethical... Just a thought. Then again accidents do happen even to bad people...

Public Shame isn't necessary for the individual, it can also be aimed at influencing those around them. In a setting like the Manticorian house of lords, it could diminish one's power, as others refuse to be seen associating with such a an individual. Even though they know about someone's personality, such happenings have a tendency to sway people's opinions when they are on the fence. Enough such happenings will diminish the individual's political power and standing.

Pavel Young was about as dishonorable and unethical as one could get, but he still accepted the duel. There is a big difference between people quietly saying you are unethical, and publicly announcing that you are a coward.

And if the politician were in the Commons, the odds of them getting re-elected would be just about zero.