Captured Solly SDs

Relax wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Beowulf has a treaty obligation to defend the Wormhole Terminus. Even without a formal obligation, being the system associated with a Wormhole Terminus carries an increased risk of hostile takeovers.

Not quite. As part of the SL, protected by the historically predominant SLN hosting thousands of SD's/BC's etc, the Beowulf system should have NO navy at all.

The BSDF's very large presence displays SL's existentially fractured mind and heart. The SL's ramshackle mess extends/extensive deep enough where Beowulf sees the justification to procure, own, and man their own wall of battle/navy to defend the wormhole junction and their own merchant marine.

The treaty to defend the Wormhole terminus is not with the Solarian League, it is explicitly with Beowulf. Beowulf (not the League) is required by the treaty to provide military protection for the terminus.

Members of the Solarian League are permitted to enter into treaties of their own with other League members or with sovereign states. These treaties can be economic, cultural, or military. Such treaties do not involve the rest of the League, and the League is not responsible for the terms in those treaties. So the League is not obligated to provide military support for the terminus.

Yep, the treaty to protect the Beowulf wormhole terminus is with Beowulf. RFC has the following in the Pearls.

(2) Beowulf and the Star Kingdom both have a very strong interest in ensuring that Beowulf can protect its terminus of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/41/1

Relax wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Beowulf has a treaty obligation to defend the Wormhole Terminus. Even without a formal obligation, being the system associated with a Wormhole Terminus carries an increased risk of hostile takeovers.

Not quite. As part of the SL, protected by the historically predominant SLN hosting thousands of SD's/BC's etc, the Beowulf system should have NO navy at all.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it is explicitly stated that the Treaty defining ownership and defense of the Wormhole is between Manticore and Beowulf, not between Manticore and the SL.

Kizarvexis wrote:Yep, the treaty to protect the Beowulf wormhole terminus is with Beowulf. RFC has the following in the Pearls.

(2) Beowulf and the Star Kingdom both have a very strong interest in ensuring that Beowulf can protect its terminus of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/41/1

Still is not a rational reason to have a massive navy. While the planet in question "owns" it, no other outside influence would dare touch it. The SLN would kick their ass in a very short order. Unless you wish to believe that Beowulf's neighbor, also part of the SL will waltz in and conquer it.

This is like taking out an insurance policy(SLN) that does not cover doors or windows as part of your home...

drothgery wrote:

n7axw wrote:There is no question but what Beowulf had a substantial SDF; over 30 SDs plus screening elements, IIRC. It's not completely clear why they believed that such a large navy was needed. Presumably the SLN was there to defend League members. Commerce protection doesn't seem to explain it either since as we've discussed previously, commerce protection is better accomplished by lighter units.

If acquiring the wall of battle is relatively recent (though it probably is not), it could be because Beowulf was worried Manticore might be defeated by Haven, and a Haven that did successfully conquer Manticore would get around to the League eventually, quite likely starting with Beowulf.

No way was Haven ever going to tackle the League in the pre-Buttercup era. At that point the League was the gorilla in the room that nobody wanted to cross. Up until when Erewhon left the alliance to enter a defensive alliance with the Republic, Haven was still depending upon the League for tech transfers.

Don

n7axw wrote:There is no question but what Beowulf had a substantial SDF; over 30 SDs plus screening elements, IIRC. It's not completely clear why they believed that such a large navy was needed. Presumably the SLN was there to defend League members. Commerce protection doesn't seem to explain it either since as we've discussed previously, commerce protection is better accomplished by lighter units.

The only thing I can come up with is Beowulf's long standing quarrel with Mesa. I wonder if long before the current furbar exploded, Beowulf's assessment of the threat Mesa represented was different than the League's to the point where Beowulf didn't quite trust the League to take that threat seriously enough to react promptly to come to Beowulf's defense should an actual attack from Mesa materialize.

Only a guess..

Don

I would say a good guess along with wormhole protection duties.

n7axw wrote:No way was Haven ever going to tackle the League in the pre-Buttercup era. At that point the League was the gorilla in the room that nobody wanted to cross. Up until when Erewhon left the alliance to enter a defensive alliance with the Republic, Haven was still depending upon the League for tech transfers.

Don

True. But ART tells us that the wormhole terminus, while administered by a civilian Beowulf company, was actually Monticoran sovereign territory (their right as it's discoverer)

It's not impossible that Beowulf feared Haven cutting a deal with the Mandarins; where the SLN might be ordered not to contest a seizure of that particular Manticoran property. That scenario seems unlikely, but the consequences for Manticore if Haven doubled (or tripled - if their plans for Basilisk worked) the number of termini they controlled, would be very bad. And even in the short term it would be bad for Beowulf because Haven seizing control would probably cause the terminus to be closed to all traffic, until the situation was resolved, cutting Beowulf off from many of its trade routes.

Again, having a big SDF of their own given them more options in situations, and it reacts far sooner than having to send a courier to the local SLN fleet base to beg for squadrons to help out.

Kizarvexis wrote:

n7axw wrote:There is no question but what Beowulf had a substantial SDF; over 30 SDs plus screening elements, IIRC. It's not completely clear why they believed that such a large navy was needed. Presumably the SLN was there to defend League members. Commerce protection doesn't seem to explain it either since as we've discussed previously, commerce protection is better accomplished by lighter units.

The only thing I can come up with is Beowulf's long standing quarrel with Mesa. I wonder if long before the current furbar exploded, Beowulf's assessment of the threat Mesa represented was different than the League's to the point where Beowulf didn't quite trust the League to take that threat seriously enough to react promptly to come to Beowulf's defense should an actual attack from Mesa materialize.

Only a guess..

Don

I would say a good guess along with wormhole protection duties.

Personally I see it 4 fold:

1) Beowulf is the oldest extra solar polity, and their fleet came to the rescue of Earth after the final war. They have a long Naval history and tradition, going back more than 1000 years, and having a strong fleet is part of the Beowulf planetary identity.

2) The Manticorian wormhole - their fleet is the gatekeeper to the verge. The Strong fleet guarding the wormhole is for the same reason Manticore had one, even before the buildup.

3) Mesa - when one of your dogs goes rabid, one of these days you're going to have to put it down - or it's going to get you.

4) The SLN Battle Fleet hasn't engaged in a Fleet action in well over 300 years. The last great SLN Fleet battle, was a FF battle, not BF. The 800 pound Gorilla has been hibernating while overdosing on every sleeping pill known to man while sipping a hot toddy. We've been told their job is not to defend the SL in action, but rather to provide such an overwhelming deterrent (in the form of destructive reprisal), no one will dare face the SL.

And since the BF's job is not to protect Beowulf territory or territorial obligations, they will just have to do it on their own.

Relax wrote:Still is not a rational reason to have a massive navy. While the planet in question "owns" it, no other outside influence would dare touch it. The SLN would kick their ass in a very short order. Unless you wish to believe that Beowulf's neighbor, also part of the SL will waltz in and conquer it.

This is like taking out an insurance policy(SLN) that does not cover doors or windows as part of your home...

They don't own it. Manticore owns the Wormhole Terminus. Beowulf is merely obligated by treaty to protect the terminus. The Solarian League Navy is not obligated to protect the terminus--it doesn't belong to the Solarian League or to any League member. The League cannot be guaranteed to protect Manticore's property. If someone seized the wormhole, the League might actually come in to take it for themselves! The treaty obligates Beowulf to protect the wormhole, even if the League is uninterested in protecting it, and even if it is the League that the wormhole needs to be protected from.

Beowulf cannot depend on the Solarian League Navy to protect Manticore's interests, and Manticore would not want Beowulf to depend on the SLN to protect the wormhole. Therefore, Beowulf itself needs to provide protection.

n7axw wrote:No way was Haven ever going to tackle the League in the pre-Buttercup era. At that point the League was the gorilla in the room that nobody wanted to cross. Up until when Erewhon left the alliance to enter a defensive alliance with the Republic, Haven was still depending upon the League for tech transfers.

They would not depend on the League for tech transfers after conquering Manticore (and Silesia and the Andermani Empire). My contention has always been that although the powers that be in Haven believed they'd be able to stop playing conquistador after conquering Manticore, Silesia, and the Andermani, they actually would not have been able to. And there was only one place left to go after that.