Relative size of combatants

All of which is supremely irrelevant to the equipment of the _Union_ Army.

Those putative Mythalan developments aren't being shared, you see.

PeterZ wrote:I can see some of this applying, but not all of it.

The key factor is Mythal. They are acting as if they are at war with their Union partners. So far they are playing politics, but politics of a brutal sort. They have long ranged plans to subvert the Andran hierarchy. That is not something that Mythal would do unless they prepared for potential hostilities as a possible consequence. That would indicate some research into magical warfare on Mythal's part.

So? No power is expended doing that, as long as the height or mass of the device doesn't change - and when it does, the power is directly related to the speed with which it changes. And, in this case, is trivially transferred to the motive source as increased drag. Which, in so far as it slows the rate of change, reduces the power required.

brnicholas wrote:
Yes, Slider cars carry a quarter of the weight of TTE transport cars. Per the second chapter of RTH the heavy lift TTE transport cars carry 220 tons. One quarter is 50-60 tons.

Per snippet 4 a dragon can carry 25 tons on a short hop and the Dragon pods with levitation spells let them carry twice that, so 50 tons.

Either way you get levitation spells that support 50 tons for hours.

Nicholas

Yes, I do see. I further see a reluctance inherent in the Mythalan hierarchy to NOT arm the garthan with powered weapons. What I don't see is the Ransarans not exploring those areas that give the non Gifted some degree of protection from the Gifted. Powered weapons go in that direction.

If they truly are as wedded to individual rights as has been depicted in text, arcane weapons for the non-Gifted would appear to be an extension of their integration of the non-Gifted into their arcane economy. This is the logical extrapolation of their wealth when Mythal has the better Magisters. Some of the Ransaran advantage could be due to their magistrons skill at enhancing animals. I suspect that even here that preference is because these sorts of arcane systems are better at incorporating the non-Gifted.

Bottom line is that if powered weapons for the non-Gifted are possible, Ransarans would have developed it as a response to the wars prior to unification. Even if they haven't developed it back then, there would be a drive to do so as arcane research advanced. That it hasn't been done, suggests that it is either not possible at reasonable expense or there are prohibitions in place. Both reasons speak to limits on the economic potential of Arcana as well as its war fighting potential.

Louis R wrote:All of which is supremely irrelevant to the equipment of the _Union_ Army.

Those putative Mythalan developments aren't being shared, you see.

PeterZ wrote:I can see some of this applying, but not all of it.

The key factor is Mythal. They are acting as if they are at war with their Union partners. So far they are playing politics, but politics of a brutal sort. They have long ranged plans to subvert the Andran hierarchy. That is not something that Mythal would do unless they prepared for potential hostilities as a possible consequence. That would indicate some research into magical warfare on Mythal's part.

Ransaran animal enhancement seems to be only one form of their advantage. The other seems to be non-gifted user interface Arcane technology.

Given the reactionary nature of Mythalan hierarchy to non-gifted getting arcane weapons or other technology, and the inherent conservatism of the Andaran military caste, I can easily see the Ransaran approach to ease of use of arcane technology being excluded from the Arcanian Union Military.

The ability of the low level gifted to recharge non-gifted arcane technology likely means a huge premium in terms of low level gifted income supporting the Ransaran economy.

This would explain some of the Mythalan hierarchy's anger at Arcanian Union migration policy.

NB: It is the outmigration of the low level Mythalan mage gifted to take advantage of Ransaran economic opportunities -- not just the non-gifted running from oppression -- that is killing their economy and culture.

And as an added bonus, it is the reality of low level Mythalan mage gifted working for the Ransaran non-mages that really honks them off.

Yes, I do see. I further see a reluctance inherent in the Mythalan hierarchy to NOT arm the garthan with powered weapons. What I don't see is the Ransarans not exploring those areas that give the non Gifted some degree of protection from the Gifted. Powered weapons go in that direction.

If they truly are as wedded to individual rights as has been depicted in text, arcane weapons for the non-Gifted would appear to be an extension of their integration of the non-Gifted into their arcane economy. This is the logical extrapolation of their wealth when Mythal has the better Magisters. Some of the Ransaran advantage could be due to their magistrons skill at enhancing animals. I suspect that even here that preference is because these sorts of arcane systems are better at incorporating the non-Gifted.

Bottom line is that if powered weapons for the non-Gifted are possible, Ransarans would have developed it as a response to the wars prior to unification. Even if they haven't developed it back then, there would be a drive to do so as arcane research advanced. That it hasn't been done, suggests that it is either not possible at reasonable expense or there are prohibitions in place. Both reasons speak to limits on the economic potential of Arcana as well as its war fighting potential.

How do you figure that? We haven't been told how those spells work. As I have admitted before it is possible that the spells suspend the laws of physics but that ought to be very power intensive. If they don't suspend the laws of physics then they must be holding the objects up against the force of gravity, which is certainly very power intensive.

Nicholas

Louis R wrote:So? No power is expended doing that, as long as the height or mass of the device doesn't change - and when it does, the power is directly related to the speed with which it changes. And, in this case, is trivially transferred to the motive source as increased drag. Which, in so far as it slows the rate of change, reduces the power required.

brnicholas wrote:
Yes, Slider cars carry a quarter of the weight of TTE transport cars. Per the second chapter of RTH the heavy lift TTE transport cars carry 220 tons. One quarter is 50-60 tons.

Per snippet 4 a dragon can carry 25 tons on a short hop and the Dragon pods with levitation spells let them carry twice that, so 50 tons.

Either way you get levitation spells that support 50 tons for hours.

Nicholas

Mil-tech bard wrote:NB: It is the outmigration of the low level Mythalan mage gifted to take advantage of Ransaran economic opportunities -- not just the non-gifted running from oppression -- that is killing their economy and culture

Probably not much immigration of gifted from Mythal; gifted, of any ability, have it made in there. Gifted born to non-gifted parents are taken from those parents and adopted to a gifted family. The only way a gifted would be left with a garthan family is if the mythalan magisters missed the presence of the child's gift.

There have been garthans who left Mythal and then had gifted children. Probably all of them are minor gifts too (with any gifted taken from garthan parents they will be less likely to have strongly gifted individuals).

I agree that holding up something against gravity (or negating gravity for a given mass, or whatever) should be very power intensive, in the sense that it should drain the spell accumulator quickly. And they can only hold up a dragon for a short period of time, which is highly suggestive.

However, what Louis R actually said is that no power is expended while holding something still. In physics, the definition of power is work per time, and the definition of work is that of a force times a displacement - there must be movement, or no work is done. So technically, to a physicist, holding something hovering in midair does no work and therefore takes no power. (I tried to calculate how much energy it takes to hold something up with telekinesis once, and there's no easy answer.) So Louis's statement that is takes no power is true, from a certain point of view (depending on the specific definition of power). My guess is that that's what he meant.

I'm surprised that they do hover sliders, really. Shaylar told us they have to keep the cars light due to the levitation, so why don't they have tracks and just use magic for propulsion? Granted, it would be more limited and take more time to set up, plus you'd have to build a slider track each way instead of only one (two sliders meeting head-on just slide around each other and keep going, as it is), but surely it would still be more efficient, especially for cargo and heavy transport. I wonder if they just never thought of it and will now that they've seen a railroad? Or is it a limitation because of the amount of steel it would take, or the labor required?

brnicholas wrote:How do you figure that? We haven't been told how those spells work. As I have admitted before it is possible that the spells suspend the laws of physics but that ought to be very power intensive. If they don't suspend the laws of physics then they must be holding the objects up against the force of gravity, which is certainly very power intensive.

Nicholas

Louis R wrote:So? No power is expended doing that, as long as the height or mass of the device doesn't change - and when it does, the power is directly related to the speed with which it changes. And, in this case, is trivially transferred to the motive source as increased drag. Which, in so far as it slows the rate of change, reduces the power required.

Are you under the impression that gifted Mythal subjects don't have ungifted children?

The risk of that alone will push the low mage gifted Mythal's to emigrate to non-Mythal cultures.

Add Ransinaran economic rewards for the low gifted to provide charged Arcanian technology to the non-gifted and you are going to have a huge pressure to leave Mythal Culture/governed territory.

Probably not much immigration of gifted from Mythal; gifted, of any ability, have it made in there. Gifted born to non-gifted parents are taken from those parents and adopted to a gifted family. The only way a gifted would be left with a garthan family is if the mythalan magisters missed the presence of the child's gift.

There have been garthans who left Mythal and then had gifted children. Probably all of them are minor gifts too (with any gifted taken from garthan parents they will be less likely to have strongly gifted individuals).

There is movement. An object in Earth's gravity well accelerates at 32 feet/sec/sec. An object at rest will begin to accelerate towards the Earth's center unless another force acts on it. To levitate at sea level, sufficient force to accelerate the object at 32 feet/sec/sec away from Earth's center of mass is required. This assumes nothing else supports the object. Work can be calculated as the force necessary to accelerate an object 32 feet/sec/sec by the distance the object will travel at that acceleration for the length of time the object is made to levitate. Because baring any force to counter gravity, an object will accelerate towards the Earth's center of mass.

Temporarily changing the local gravity might take a lot or a very little arcane energy. Only RFC knows.

bkwormlisa wrote:I agree that holding up something against gravity (or negating gravity for a given mass, or whatever) should be very power intensive, in the sense that it should drain the spell accumulator quickly. And they can only hold up a dragon for a short period of time, which is highly suggestive.

However, what Louis R actually said is that no power is expended while holding something still. In physics, the definition of power is work per time, and the definition of work is that of a force times a displacement - there must be movement, or no work is done. So technically, to a physicist, holding something hovering in midair does no work and therefore takes no power. (I tried to calculate how much energy it takes to hold something up with telekinesis once, and there's no easy answer.) So Louis's statement that is takes no power is true, from a certain point of view (depending on the specific definition of power). My guess is that that's what he meant.

I'm surprised that they do hover sliders, really. Shaylar told us they have to keep the cars light due to the levitation, so why don't they have tracks and just use magic for propulsion? Granted, it would be more limited and take more time to set up, plus you'd have to build a slider track each way instead of only one (two sliders meeting head-on just slide around each other and keep going, as it is), but surely it would still be more efficient, especially for cargo and heavy transport. I wonder if they just never thought of it and will now that they've seen a railroad? Or is it a limitation because of the amount of steel it would take, or the labor required?

Incorrect. As you should be aware simply from looking around you.

Assuming, of course, that you didn't write that immediately after jumping out of a window. In which case you will have by now hit the ground and probably won't be responding for a while. On the way there, though, you would have noticed movement, although whether you would have ascribed that movement to yourself or your surroundings isn't evident, and you would indeed have been accelerating at 32 feet per second per second. Nothing around you would be, though, which is why reaching the ground is so... awkward.

Should you choose to expire in a more static fashion, we can stick your neck in a noose, haul you to the yardarm and pay off the line around the nearest belaying pin. You would be very much in the way should we need to trim the sails, but I can assure you that no power will be needed to keep you up there. Interestingly, should we pay the line through an electric winch, and try to use the motor to hold you up, the power needed, for the short time it took for the motor to reduce itself to slag, would actually be a very large multiple [20-50x] of the power used to get you up there in the first place. But that is due to the characteristics of an electric motor with a locked rotor, not because we need any power to keep you dangling.

Which brings us around to levitation spells again. Any magical power - whatever that means - consumed in the steady state is going to be dissipated in the internal workings of the spell, because no work is being done on the load. And, judging by the physical power that wasn't needed to raise the load in the first place, that amount isn't all that closely related to the size of the load.

PeterZ wrote:There is movement. An object in Earth's gravity well accelerates at 32 feet/sec/sec. An object at rest will begin to accelerate towards the Earth's center unless another force acts on it. To levitate at sea level, sufficient force to accelerate the object at 32 feet/sec/sec away from Earth's center of mass is required. This assumes nothing else supports the object. Work can be calculated as the force necessary to accelerate an object 32 feet/sec/sec by the distance the object will travel at that acceleration for the length of time the object is made to levitate. Because baring any force to counter gravity, an object will accelerate towards the Earth's center of mass.

Temporarily changing the local gravity might take a lot or a very little arcane energy. Only RFC knows.

bkwormlisa wrote:I agree that holding up something against gravity (or negating gravity for a given mass, or whatever) should be very power intensive, in the sense that it should drain the spell accumulator quickly. And they can only hold up a dragon for a short period of time, which is highly suggestive.

However, what Louis R actually said is that no power is expended while holding something still. In physics, the definition of power is work per time, and the definition of work is that of a force times a displacement - there must be movement, or no work is done. So technically, to a physicist, holding something hovering in midair does no work and therefore takes no power. (I tried to calculate how much energy it takes to hold something up with telekinesis once, and there's no easy answer.) So Louis's statement that is takes no power is true, from a certain point of view (depending on the specific definition of power). My guess is that that's what he meant.

I'm surprised that they do hover sliders, really. Shaylar told us they have to keep the cars light due to the levitation, so why don't they have tracks and just use magic for propulsion? Granted, it would be more limited and take more time to set up, plus you'd have to build a slider track each way instead of only one (two sliders meeting head-on just slide around each other and keep going, as it is), but surely it would still be more efficient, especially for cargo and heavy transport. I wonder if they just never thought of it and will now that they've seen a railroad? Or is it a limitation because of the amount of steel it would take, or the labor required?