Radical shift of ship design

While I've seen the ships from the game and the ships from the books (Thanks MaxxQ), I don't think I've actually seen a picture (concept or otherwise) of the ships from the planned film.

Evergreen, any chance you could post one for perusal comments?

Please?

Michael Everett wrote:While I've seen the ships from the game and the ships from the books (Thanks MaxxQ), I don't think I've actually seen a picture (concept or otherwise) of the ships from the planned film.

Evergreen, any chance you could post one for perusal comments?

Please?

If you've seen the comics, then more or less, that is the movie concept art. The main purpose of the comics is to generate interest in the Honorverse to non-fans. A secondary purpose (IMO) is to work out designs for various things, while also generating *some* income to help offset development/design costs for the movie.

Evergreen were guests at HonorCon 2013, and showed some early concept stuff for the film. Most of it was pretty far off what has been seen in the final published comics, and of course, *way* off the designs BuNine has come up with.

When I had first seen the designs/concept art at HonorCon, the first thing I thought was that they looked an awful lot like some of the Shivan ships from the PC games Freespace and Freespace 2.

And Nimitz looked even more evil and less like a treecat than he did when the first series of comics were released.

SWM wrote:

Dca wrote:Artistic license comes at a cost, and if Evergreen is footing the bill then they get a big say. As an engineer, I'm disappointed by the differences manufactured for visual appeal, and I'm worried about the impact on the storyline when deception becomes important within telescope visual range. But that seems worth sacrificing if the core story gets told properly. There's always room for a remake if it's successful enough. And at least the impeller rings are there.

Deception at telescope range? As far as I know, that has never happened in the text. In fact, generally the text has said that if they manage to get a clear view of the ship, the deception is over. Deception has only worked if the enemy does not have a clear view of the ship.

Agreed, generally. I was reaching for an operational basis for the ship design to make a difference, trying to visualize a situation where the new ship designs might impact operations. I admitted my bias above, but I do want an outcome that helps propagate the core story lines.

Can other people see a situation where the change in ship style impacts the story's operations, or potentially might? Or is it just the antediluvians' perspective?

Dca wrote:Can other people see a situation where the change in ship style impacts the story's operations, or potentially might? Or is it just the antediluvians' perspective?

There's a good question--a useful way to evaluate the change in design impartially.

Let's see. The design still has obvious node rings. There is a distinction between broadside and chase weapons. The ventral and dorsal sides are nearly unarmored. There is still a somewhat recognizable hammerhead, and it still serves the same effective purpose, though it looks far different from the text. Boat bays are still on the dorsal side. Ship models can still be identified by visual inspection.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any actions or plot points in the text affected by the design change. But someone else probably can.

SWM wrote:

Dca wrote:Can other people see a situation where the change in ship style impacts the story's operations, or potentially might? Or is it just the antediluvians' perspective?

There's a good question--a useful way to evaluate the change in design impartially.

Let's see. The design still has obvious node rings. There is a distinction between broadside and chase weapons. The ventral and dorsal sides are nearly unarmored. There is still a somewhat recognizable hammerhead, and it still serves the same effective purpose, though it looks far different from the text. Boat bays are still on the dorsal side. Ship models can still be identified by visual inspection.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any actions or plot points in the text affected by the design change. But someone else probably can.

Where do you limpet pods? (Up to 600 pods on SDs!)

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I've been at all the Evergreen presentations too, SWM and MaxxQ, and I just don't buy the argument that audience would not be able to make visual distinction without radical design differences, and "menacing" appearance.

Paint jobs and 'flags' have worked just fine in every sea warfare story ever filmed. Black hats and white hats (and horses) have a long Hollywood tradition.

Further, it is not as if 'clean' lines have not worked on visual media spaceships before. Seems to me there have been a couple of 'moderately successful' film series that featured clean-looking ships.

As you say, this war may be lost, but many things are going to have to be re-thought for the shift to a TV format. I don't think that any graphics are finalized (witness the still developing Nimitz), so I think we should continue to make our dissatisfaction, or favor, with the ship art, and the underlying concept logic, known.

What it boils down to, MaxxQ, is that so far your stuff and Tom Marrone's stuff is elegant and correct, as described in canon, and the Evergreen ship art seen so far is just way off-base, visually complicated, and unnecessarily so.

dreamrider

dreamrider wrote:

SWM wrote:There's a good question--a useful way to evaluate the change in design impartially.

Let's see. The design still has obvious node rings. There is a distinction between broadside and chase weapons. The ventral and dorsal sides are nearly unarmored. There is still a somewhat recognizable hammerhead, and it still serves the same effective purpose, though it looks far different from the text. Boat bays are still on the dorsal side. Ship models can still be identified by visual inspection.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any actions or plot points in the text affected by the design change. But someone else probably can.

Where do you limpet pods? (Up to 600 pods on SDs!)

---------------------------------------------------

I've been at all the Evergreen presentations too, SWM and MaxxQ, and I just don't buy the argument that audience would not be able to make visual distinction without radical design differences, and "menacing" appearance.

Paint jobs and 'flags' have worked just fine in every sea warfare story ever filmed. Black hats and white hats (and horses) have a long Hollywood tradition.

Further, it is not as if 'clean' lines have not worked on visual media spaceships before. Seems to me there have been a couple of 'moderately successful' film series that featured clean-looking ships.

As you say, this war may be lost, but many things are going to have to be re-thought for the shift to a TV format. I don't think that any graphics are finalized (witness the still developing Nimitz), so I think we should continue to make our dissatisfaction, or favor, with the ship art, and the underlying concept logic, known.

What it boils down to, MaxxQ, is that so far your stuff and Tom Marrone's stuff is elegant and correct, as described in canon, and the Evergreen ship art seen so far is just way off-base, visually complicated, and unnecessarily so.

dreamrider

Dreamrider, I understand your desire to express your opinion of the designs. But I don't think it is very useful to reply to my post to do it, since my post is very specifically looking at it from the perspective of whether the Evergreen designs have any effect on the plot of the stories. The only attempt to respond to what I said is the question of where to limpet pods--which is ridiculous. There are just as many places to limpet pods on the Evergreen design as on the original Weber design.

You aren't really trying to respond to my post, so why are you quoting it? If you are looking to draw me into a debate, I respectfully decline.

It's like stickers, spoilers and scoops that automatically add 5 mph to the speed and economy of a car or as I like to call them: Go fast bolts. Even the game ships have neon flare.

SWM wrote:since my post is very specifically looking at it from the perspective of whether the Evergreen designs have any effect on the plot of the stories. The only attempt to respond to what I said is the question of where to limpet pods--which is ridiculous. There are just as many places to limpet pods on the Evergreen design as on the original Weber design.

Yes, that. I know I'm attached to the canon and its ship designs. I'm personally offended by the decorations and non-functional variations presented, but that could be my bias based on history. Going the other way, from movies to the (invariably better) books seems easier. So SWM heard my question right: so what? Specifically, does Evergreen's reimagining ship design have any significant impact on any plot line? If not, I don't think we old-skoolers have a leg to stand on.

Dca wrote:

SWM wrote:since my post is very specifically looking at it from the perspective of whether the Evergreen designs have any effect on the plot of the stories. The only attempt to respond to what I said is the question of where to limpet pods--which is ridiculous. There are just as many places to limpet pods on the Evergreen design as on the original Weber design.

Yes, that. I know I'm attached to the canon and its ship designs. I'm personally offended by the decorations and non-functional variations presented, but that could be my bias based on history. Going the other way, from movies to the (invariably better) books seems easier. So SWM heard my question right: so what? Specifically, does Evergreen's reimagining ship design have any significant impact on any plot line? If not, I don't think we old-skoolers have a leg to stand on.

Evergreen can design their ships (lol - I am already calling them 'their' ships) whatever way they like of course. We have zero influence on that so I guess you are right with 'leg to stand on'.

The other side of the coin is we are free to like or dislike their ships and Evergreen has zero influence on that.

I won't be making any positive word-of-mouth propaganda for a movie whose concept art I find ridiculous.

I'm actually surprised. No one can come up with any effects that the Evergreen designs would have on the plot of the stories? I was sure there must be some that I couldn't think of.