Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???

Jonathan_S wrote:Oops, looks like you're right. I'd misremembered the timeline and though Shaylar had linked with Darcel as soon as the survey party got cornered. But rechecking the text shows that while she'd sent a message from their original camp with the warning, and their intentions to flee, she didn't link in again until after the firefight at the fallen trees had started.

So it's clear she didn't live broadcast that actual order, and it does seem unlikely, in the short time she had, that she sent her memory of it. Though she might have caught a few of Jasak's 'Cease Fire. Damn You's... But that's ambiguous, at best, and even once translated might be assumed to be a commander who has won now wanting prisoners; rather than a commander incensed that his troops initiated combat against his specific command.


There may be some scenes hiding later on that clarify exactly what was in the final message Darcel relayed; but I didn't find them quickly.

HHNF wrote:“No.” Chan Baskay grimaced. “On that point, they’re actually telling the truth, according to Rothag. They don’t have any better idea of who shot first than we do. And oddly enough, they also seem to be telling the truth when they insist that the officer in command at the time tried to avoid massacring our survey crew.”
“I think maybe Rothag better have his Talent checked,” Arthag said bitingly.
“I know, I know!” Chan Baskay had the air of a man who wanted to rip out handfuls of hair in frustration. “I’ve Seen Shaylar’s message myself. I know chan Hagrahyl stood up with his hands empty and got shot down like a dog for his pains. But they insist that wasn’t what their officer wanted, and Rothag’s Talent insists they’re telling the truth when they say it.”
“They may believe they are,” Arthag snorted. “But if they do, it’s because the bastard lied to them about what happened out here.”
“Maybe.” Chan Baskay shook his head, his expression half-exasperated and half-hopeful. “I keep wishing Shaylar had managed to contact Kinlafia sooner.” He grimaced. “That sounds stupid, I know. The fact that she managed to reach him at all under those circumstances, much less sustain the link through what happened to her and all of her friends… Gods, it was nothing short of miraculous! I can’t even imagine the kind of guts it took to hold that link. But we didn’t actually See or Hear anything until after chan Hagrahyl went down.”
“But we know what happened, anyway,” Arthag pointed out. “Darcel – Voice Kinlafia – was linked deeply enough to know that from the side traces. Besides, she told him so.”
“Granted. But she Told him, and she Showed him her memory of chan Hagrahyl going down with his hands empty and the crossbow bolt in his throat. That’s not the same as Seeing it happen for ourselves. We have what she told Kinlafia, but we don’t have anything before the actual event, don’t know if there was something Shaylar didn’t see herself, or saw but didn’t recognize, or didn’t realize it had happened at all, in those few seconds we didn’t actually See.”
“I’m sorry, Dorzon,” Arthag said after a moment, “but I can’t think of anything which could possibly change what happened or why. And even if I could think of anything now, it’s too late for it to have any effect.”
“I know. I know.” Chan Baskay gazed off into the depths of the forest. “But they’re still insistent that they didn’t want any of this, that what happened was against their standing orders to establish peaceful contact with any new human civilization they encountered, and Rothag’s Talent insists they’re telling the truth about that. Which presumably means it accurately represents their government’s long-term policy, no matter how badly things have gone wrong on the ground. To be honest, that’s the only hopeful thing I’ve heard out of their mouths yet! Unfortunately, it’s outweighed by everything else… especially what your Talent is telling you.”

JimHacker wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Oops, looks like you're right. I'd misremembered the timeline and though Shaylar had linked with Darcel as soon as the survey party got cornered. But rechecking the text shows that while she'd sent a message from their original camp with the warning, and their intentions to flee, she didn't link in again until after the firefight at the fallen trees had started.

So it's clear she didn't live broadcast that actual order, and it does seem unlikely, in the short time she had, that she sent her memory of it. Though she might have caught a few of Jasak's 'Cease Fire. Damn You's... But that's ambiguous, at best, and even once translated might be assumed to be a commander who has won now wanting prisoners; rather than a commander incensed that his troops initiated combat against his specific command.


There may be some scenes hiding later on that clarify exactly what was in the final message Darcel relayed; but I didn't find them quickly.

I'm not sure where the scene I'm thinking of is exactly. I suspect either towards the end of the first book or the beginning/middle of the second. But in it Shaylar is beating herself up for her part in making war inevitable - she is blaming herself because she broadcasted her memory of Ghartoun (sp?) going down with an arrow in his throat and her belief that it was ordered rather than broadcasting the literal orders (in an, at that time unknown, language) she heard, and then live-broadcasted the rest of the attack. She believes that her assumption the attack was ordered will be spread across Sharona (correctly) and make war unavoidable.

If anyone can remember/find exactly where this is that would be great

bkwormlisa wrote:It was in HG, when Gadrial told Shaylar that Garlath had shot against orders. When she broke down, Jathmar sensed it, and they had to reveal they had Talents.

But I think the more relevant passage is in HHNF, when chan Baskay and Arthag are talking the morning of the attack.

HHNF wrote:“No.” Chan Baskay grimaced. “On that point, they’re actually telling the truth, according to Rothag. They don’t have any better idea of who shot first than we do. And oddly enough, they also seem to be telling the truth when they insist that the officer in command at the time tried to avoid massacring our survey crew.”
“I think maybe Rothag better have his Talent checked,” Arthag said bitingly.
“I know, I know!” Chan Baskay had the air of a man who wanted to rip out handfuls of hair in frustration. “I’ve Seen Shaylar’s message myself. I know chan Hagrahyl stood up with his hands empty and got shot down like a dog for his pains. But they insist that wasn’t what their officer wanted, and Rothag’s Talent insists they’re telling the truth when they say it.”
“They may believe they are,” Arthag snorted. “But if they do, it’s because the bastard lied to them about what happened out here.”
“Maybe.” Chan Baskay shook his head, his expression half-exasperated and half-hopeful. “I keep wishing Shaylar had managed to contact Kinlafia sooner.” He grimaced. “That sounds stupid, I know. The fact that she managed to reach him at all under those circumstances, much less sustain the link through what happened to her and all of her friends… Gods, it was nothing short of miraculous! I can’t even imagine the kind of guts it took to hold that link. But we didn’t actually See or Hear anything until after chan Hagrahyl went down.”
“But we know what happened, anyway,” Arthag pointed out. “Darcel – Voice Kinlafia – was linked deeply enough to know that from the side traces. Besides, she told him so.”
“Granted. But she Told him, and she Showed him her memory of chan Hagrahyl going down with his hands empty and the crossbow bolt in his throat. That’s not the same as Seeing it happen for ourselves. We have what she told Kinlafia, but we don’t have anything before the actual event, don’t know if there was something Shaylar didn’t see herself, or saw but didn’t recognize, or didn’t realize it had happened at all, in those few seconds we didn’t actually See.”
“I’m sorry, Dorzon,” Arthag said after a moment, “but I can’t think of anything which could possibly change what happened or why. And even if I could think of anything now, it’s too late for it to have any effect.”
“I know. I know.” Chan Baskay gazed off into the depths of the forest. “But they’re still insistent that they didn’t want any of this, that what happened was against their standing orders to establish peaceful contact with any new human civilization they encountered, and Rothag’s Talent insists they’re telling the truth about that. Which presumably means it accurately represents their government’s long-term policy, no matter how badly things have gone wrong on the ground. To be honest, that’s the only hopeful thing I’ve heard out of their mouths yet! Unfortunately, it’s outweighed by everything else… especially what your Talent is telling you.”

Thorby wrote:It also raises the question of why Skirvon did not have a truth telling crystal with him when he dealt with chan Baskay. And it raises the question of how mul Gurthak and crew think they're going to get away with their lies, and their responsibility for the third, and most serious, attack on Sharona. Are truth spells rarer than Sifters? Did Skirvon avoid the use of a truth spell because that would have raised suspicions about the other functions of his crystals? Since truth detection depends on magic, can a magistron block or subvert a truth spell? If so, then the Sifter has the advantage.

Astelon wrote:
As for mul Gurthak and company getting away with it, he can always honestly say he did what he thought was best for Arcana. He will also use other subterfuge to avoid answering the questions asked, while appearing to give an appropriate answer. Ask him if he did anything illegal, answer no I did not (not illegal in Mythal). This gets harder when questions get more specific, but then someone has to know they right questions to ask.

Thorby wrote:

Astelon wrote:
As for mul Gurthak and company getting away with it, he can always honestly say he did what he thought was best for Arcana. He will also use other subterfuge to avoid answering the questions asked, while appearing to give an appropriate answer. Ask him if he did anything illegal, answer no I did not (not illegal in Mythal). This gets harder when questions get more specific, but then someone has to know they right questions to ask.

I think you are absolutely right. This is mul Gurthak's plan, to shift all the blame to Harsha. But this is also bigotry, to expect that no Andaran can figure out what Myrthal mul Gurthak is doing and that no one else can plot or plan as well as you can. Hubris is always followed by nemesis. And, Harsha has already figured out that he will be hung out to dry. Harsha has already shown that he is willing to bend and break the rules.

PeterZ wrote:And Nemesis, to give what is due, translates as justice in the sense you refer to in your post. How will justice be judged? Who will mete it out?

Most important to me in this book, how will Toralk suffer the punishment Harshu deserves for acquiescing to torturing Sharonans and the willfulness murderer of innocents. All for the pursuits of military objectives he knew might well have been achieved diplomatically. All the pseudo Intel presented at the initial briefing was known to be off base by both Harshu and Toralk. Yet that knowledge was not acted upon by Harshu. He will find his memesis and nemesis unfortunately will find Toralk.

Thorby wrote:<snipped for brevity>
And it raises the question of how mul Gurthak and crew think they're going to get away with their lies, and their responsibility for the third, and most serious, attack on Sharona. Are truth spells rarer than Sifters? Did Skirvon avoid the use of a truth spell because that would have raised suspicions about the other functions of his crystals? Since truth detection depends on magic, can a magistron block or subvert a truth spell? If so, then the Sifter has the advantage.