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Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay

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Re: Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay
Post by Ensign Re-read   » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:08 pm

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SWM wrote:[quote="Star Knight]There are six junctions that we know of:
Asgard, Erewhon, Felix, Manticore, Visigoth and Yidun.

. . .

We dont know anything about the location of Visigoth. But since it was discovered some 500 years ago its for sure a League system. With one Termini connecting to Mesa, the RMN will deploy a strong force there.[/quote]
Actually, we do know more about Visigoth. We know that it has two termini, one of which is Mesa. And we know that Visigoth is a mere 60 light-years from Beowulf...[/quote]


Huh? Where's the reference?
Or, give me a clue and I'll go hunt for it.
=====
The Celestia "addon" for the Planet Safehold as well as the Kau-zhi and Manticore A-B star systems, are at URL:
http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/.
=====
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68506297@N ... 740128635/
=====
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Re: Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay
Post by Ensign Re-read   » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:16 pm

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BrightSoul wrote:If I recall correctly there are only two Junctions in Sollie space, Visigoth and Felix, and it isn't clear that Felix is actually in Sollie space nor is it clear that Visigoth is a Junction rather than a single Wormhole to Mesa.
-CLIP-


Hmmmm... maybe not.

I have a vague memory of DW posting some comment about there being numerous other Wormholes, but the maps shown to date only reflect those that the storie's characters have reason to deal with or be concerned about.

If my memory is only partly wrong, then the above mentioned posting was a paraphrase of something he said to the person with whome he wrote the original napkin-drawing of the Honorverse's known space.

[EDIT: missed a hyphen]
=====
The Celestia "addon" for the Planet Safehold as well as the Kau-zhi and Manticore A-B star systems, are at URL:
http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/.
=====
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68506297@N ... 740128635/
=====
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Re: Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay
Post by Duckk   » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:10 pm

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Yes, there are more termini in the League than just Beowulf and Visigoth.
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay
Post by Ensign Re-read   » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:13 pm

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Ensign Re-read wrote:
SWM wrote:[quote="Star Knight]There are six junctions that we know of:
Asgard, Erewhon, Felix, Manticore, Visigoth and Yidun.

. . .

We dont know anything about the location of Visigoth. But since it was discovered some 500 years ago its for sure a League system. With one Termini connecting to Mesa, the RMN will deploy a strong force there.[/quote]
Actually, we do know more about Visigoth. We know that it has two termini, one of which is Mesa. And we know that Visigoth is a mere 60 light-years from Beowulf...[/quote][/quote]

Huh? Where's the reference?
Or, give me a clue and I'll go hunt for it.[/quote][/quote][/quote]


I found the references; my search came up with six.
The three in Mission of Honor didn't seem relevant:
Chapter 1 (page 2 of 435),
Chapter 13 (page 125 of 435),
Chapter 39 (page 388 & 389 of 435).
nor did one from Storm from the Shadows:
Chapter 10, 1/4th way in (page 99 of 473).



However, the other two from SftS do confirm what SWM said:

Chapter 19, 4/7ths way in (page 177 of 473):
But there's not really any choice, he told himself. It's only sixty light-years from Beowulf to Mesa via the Visigoth Wormhole. That's only five days for a streak boat. We can't possibly justify not using that advantage at a time like this, so I guess I'll just have to hope the wheels don't come off.


Chapter 44, 3/14ths of the way in (page 394 of 473),
"At least we can get our diplomatic note in the first," his brother pointed out. "The message turnaround time from New Tuscany to Old Terra is only about twenty-five days by way of Manticore and the Junction. It's a lot longer for anyone trying to work around the outside of our communication loop. New Tuscany to Meyers is over five T-weeks for a dispatch boat, and it's over six T-weeks even for a message direct from New Tuscany to Mesa." White Haven grimaced, as if the system name physically tasted bad. "From there, it's another thirteen T-days or so to Old Terra by way of the Visigoth Junction and Beowulf. If they waste time following protocol and report to Meyers first, it'll take them right on eighty-six days—damned close to three T-months—just to get their first report back to Sol. Of course, assuming that we're right about Manpower's involvement, they probably will send dispatches directly by way of Mesa and Visigoth and get them there in only sixty-seven days or so, but even on that basis, our note will be there in less than half the time."
.
=====
The Celestia "addon" for the Planet Safehold as well as the Kau-zhi and Manticore A-B star systems, are at URL:
http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/.
=====
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68506297@N ... 740128635/
=====
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Re: Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay
Post by Ensign Re-read   » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:17 pm

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Am I right to say that the Visigoth has a secret 2nd wormhole, _AND_ it's the same one as the "unexplored" wormhole at Torch?

If yes, oh boy.
That could get interesting at Lagoon Two.
=====
The Celestia "addon" for the Planet Safehold as well as the Kau-zhi and Manticore A-B star systems, are at URL:
http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/.
=====
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68506297@N ... 740128635/
=====
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Re: Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay
Post by drothgery   » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:13 pm

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Ensign Re-read wrote:Am I right to say that the Visigoth has a secret 2nd wormhole, _AND_ it's the same one as the "unexplored" wormhole at Torch?


No. The unexplored wormhole at Torch leads to a formally unclaimed system controlled by Mannerheim and known only as SGC-902-36-G.

Torch Wormhole Bridge:
Torch<->SGC-902-36-G

Felix Junction:
SGC-902-36-G<->Felix<->Darius (which is the Alignment Bolthole) (two other termini)

Felix is ~10 light-years from Mannerheim, and currently unclaimed because the development rights to the system are in legal limbo.
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Re: Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay
Post by Ensign Re-read   » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:03 am

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drothgery wrote:
Ensign Re-read wrote:Am I right to say that the Visigoth has a secret 2nd wormhole, _AND_ it's the same one as the "unexplored" wormhole at Torch?


No. The unexplored wormhole at Torch leads to a formally unclaimed system controlled by Mannerheim and known only as SGC-902-36-G.

Torch Wormhole Bridge:
Torch<->SGC-902-36-G

Felix Junction:
SGC-902-36-G<->Felix<->Darius (which is the Alignment Bolthole) (two other termini)

Felix is ~10 light-years from Mannerheim, and currently unclaimed because the development rights to the system are in legal limbo.


Let me guess... all of this is in Torch of Freedom right? The _ONE_ book I have only in paper, and not electronic. Nuts.
=====
The Celestia "addon" for the Planet Safehold as well as the Kau-zhi and Manticore A-B star systems, are at URL:
http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/.
=====
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68506297@N ... 740128635/
=====
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Re: Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay
Post by drothgery   » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:29 am

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Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:07 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

Ensign Re-read wrote:
drothgery wrote:
Ensign Re-read wrote:Am I right to say that the Visigoth has a secret 2nd wormhole, _AND_ it's the same one as the "unexplored" wormhole at Torch?


No. The unexplored wormhole at Torch leads to a formally unclaimed system controlled by Mannerheim and known only as SGC-902-36-G.

Torch Wormhole Bridge:
Torch<->SGC-902-36-G

Felix Junction:
SGC-902-36-G<->Felix<->Darius (which is the Alignment Bolthole) (two other termini)

Felix is ~10 light-years from Mannerheim, and currently unclaimed because the development rights to the system are in legal limbo.


Let me guess... all of this is in Torch of Freedom right? The _ONE_ book I have only in paper, and not electronic. Nuts.


Yup. Why don't you have an electronic copy? It's on the Mission of Honor CD (and the 1635: The Eastern Front CD, if you like Eric Flint's Ring of Fire series) and you can get those from http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com.
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Re: Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay
Post by Thirdbase   » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:30 am

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Ensign Re-read wrote:
drothgery wrote:
Ensign Re-read wrote:Am I right to say that the Visigoth has a secret 2nd wormhole, _AND_ it's the same one as the "unexplored" wormhole at Torch?


No. The unexplored wormhole at Torch leads to a formally unclaimed system controlled by Mannerheim and known only as SGC-902-36-G.

Torch Wormhole Bridge:
Torch<->SGC-902-36-G

Felix Junction:
SGC-902-36-G<->Felix<->Darius (which is the Alignment Bolthole) (two other termini)

Felix is ~10 light-years from Mannerheim, and currently unclaimed because the development rights to the system are in legal limbo.


Let me guess... all of this is in Torch of Freedom right? The _ONE_ book I have only in paper, and not electronic. Nuts.


It all appears to be in Chapter 50 of ToF, which was on the MoH CD.
------------
runsforcelery wrote:
Thirdbase wrote:I think that was the next novel.



Allow me to demonstrate my concision, brevity, and economy of phrase:

"Smart alec!" ;p
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Re: Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:58 am

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Star Knight wrote:There is no need at all for using captured SLN Wallers for Case Lacoon II.
The Alliance has dozens and dozens of old style Superdreadnoughts still available. You can use them if you want to, but why?
Two modern RMN SD(P) BatRons will take care of anything short of a really big SLN fleet.
You want to jump in on them? How do you think the SLN could accomplish that if it is at all possible?
They would be jumping blind. They don’t have any Ghost Rider equivalent to gather intel on the exact position of the RMN detachment.
The Mantis use Apollo and a FTL sensor sphere. They ll just park the ships somewhere away from the termini and wait till someone shows up. No need for them to guard the termini with active impellers. So no jumping in on them, no fight in energy range.


Hi all,

Quite correct.

The RMN has some 170 old SD's (not counting Grayson's 60 in reserve intended for the RMN when war broke out again; see the pearls) left after BoMA (-48) and Alizon (-7), while the IAN and the GSN have another 253 combined for 483, while the RHN has over 300, albeit they're going into reserve so their crews can man the new RHN SDP's.

Some of these could be available to trustworthy 'new friends' from the SL, 2/3 of whom had only LAC's for self defense, NTM FS protectorates, and independent verge systems as the Grand Alliance continues to shift to SDP's, as well as the potential defensive anchoring of their own lesser systems, until SDP's become more available; besides the MA's ~380, the RHN should have something close to 400 SDP's as well.

The SLN and the MAN don't realize it, but they're not even in the RHN's league, let alone the MA's.

The RMN does have some 20-30 million reservist veterans from the first war, but the 1.02 million in the old SD's would man a rather powerful new fleet. if there were just 200 new SDP's or Medusa-B's, 200 BCL's or Nike's, 200 CAL's or Sag-C's, and 200 Roland's built before OB, which I think are high numbers for everything save the SDP's by the way; the total number of SD crews needed to man them is just 72&1/3.

Then there are the almost 200 old BC's (another 400K), 100 old CA's (~90+K), ~270 CL's (~135 K), ~400 old DD's (~132 K), when new ships do become available again, but the old veterans ought to be up to speed long before then as well.
(want to bet some of those veterans will soon serve on RHN ships ?)
From the teasers apparently dropped by DW on his book tour, the SL is about to learn why messing with the SKM is a very bad idea, economically and financially, never mind militarily.

As for defending the termini, only 5 are in the SL; Beowulf (SKM;7), Joshua (Erewhon;2), Yildin ( a triple ?), Visigoth (Mesa),2, and the unnamed #5. The reader knows about Darius, and there are presumably other undiscovered termini and WHJ's in the SL, while the sheer size of the protectorate shell implies at least 7 times as many wormholes, while the verge; ie, the volume between 400 to 500 LY from Terra, is almost 10% larger, not to mention the vast regions beyond, including at least one known unnamed wormhole 'bridge' that is over 900 LY, and theoretically some yet to be discovered are over a thousand LY, according to textev.

So far as I know, the number of discovered wormholes has been reduced to between 70-90, from the 150-200 first time discovery trips referenced in War of Honor. Presumably, the protectorates and the verge have the most of them termini despite the higher traffic and discovery efforts within the SL, and obviously by comparison the outer regions are the least explored. I wouldn't be surprised if the protectorates had some two dozen termini etc, while the verge had discovered almost as many and the huge outer volume of human space has a very sparsely sprinkled roughly two dozen more.

DW has not yet explained in detail what his characters mean when they refer to other nearby termini to their own. It is implied they are close enough to be used in combination with their own, as a sort extended junction. If the SL is considered a high density zone or an average benchmark, something around 210 LY apart is envisioned, or some 10-8 weeks by freighter in between them. This seems far more the conversation textev intends, but we can only wait for the books to find out.

Perhaps there are only 6-10 other associated termini links, but even against the likely maximum of ~24 systems, the RMN evidently doesn't see any real difficulties with even Laocoon II, they may already have treaties or 'secret understandings' with most regarding such a situation, such as Beowulf.
One reason for the RMN's confidence is such a contingency plan involves keeping track of the potential SLN forces that might respond. Evidently the likely hood of such a plan is so preposterous that the available nearby SLN units pose no threat at all, and the time factor needed for large reinforcements provides plenty of time for more powerful RMN forces to arrive much sooner if needed. Given the apparent response time of the SL dinosaur, even 6-10 other termini could overtax the SLN's active available force in reserve, when one considers all its current commitments.

Even if the FF has between 1500 to 2000 each of BC's, CA's, CL's, and DD's; that's around one each per league member, if they were all in the SL itself: not patrolling at least some ~500 million cubic LY beyond the SL's perimeter, in hyper transit between stars, not forgetting those under repair, etc.

Consider the Madras sector (TQ) that has only a division of heavy cruisers (4) as its strongest force, for a volume apparently some several hundred LY in radius, if its the closest to the termini, if Meyers is centrally located, as textev indicates. Of course if the FS were rational, there ought to be somebody much closer to Lynx etc.

Of course there should be a vast number of dispatch boats, to help pass the mail along, but there's no textev for the huge numbers required by any sensible attempt to govern in as timely a fashion as possible. Instead the corruption of FS, to name just one bureaucracy, exploits what passes for communications in the SL, along with every other opportunity for graft etc.

The communications gap may be one of the ultimately mortal burdens of the SL. It "jes grew like Topsy". Among other things, it is too big for effective communication to survive. Where that limit was passed is an excellent question as well, as it portends large in Manticore's future as well, not withstanding using the streak drive db in its time, etc.

As for the tactical details, using the RZ to avoid energy range attacks should be a given (there are also mine-layers, MDM pods, Ghost-rider RD's, ECM, Mistletoe, etc). The SKM's WHJ was almost 7 hours away and considered 'close'. While some boarding pinnace's will be busy, let's assume the RMN's confidence regarding Laocoon I and II are accurate appreciations by a professional navy, that has been researching and preparing for this for at least decades, as seems to be the textev.

As what the MWW intends for all the potential SLN BF SD's, only he knows for sure at this point, although Crandall's TF 496 survivors may be used in the interim by the TQ, Filareta's might become an export item to SL members worried they may be abandoned by the SLN, when it starts concentrating against the SKM. Who knows, perhaps some will be 'gifts' to some of the other termini systems?

Keep smiling,

L
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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