Dual Sidewalls

Post BOM: So there we were sitting on Gryphon waiting for them to build a new HMSS for us to work/play on and one of the lieutenants said... "Why not design a two layer sidewall? and tune them to really distort any incoming fire. Seems like we could retrofit them to dang near any ship."

...And go.

Duckk wrote:http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/306/1

Yep, read that infodump before I posted my "lieutenant's thought". Except that a military impeller wedge has two layers, and we know that ships can open ports and tow things through them (like KHII which has it's own layered defenses), I'd leave it at that -- and KHII isn't an "energy range" defender anyway.

Remember, the geeks in GRAM are supposed to rethink everything and come up with new ways to use WHATEVER tech. It seems likely that tractors strong enough to hold a decoy in place even as far back as HMS-Fearless CL-56 (OBS) would also be powerful enough to hold a CM size object generating an oblique wedge in a similar but more useful position.

I'd argue that there was simply never a need for it until pods became effective again and DDM/MDM missiles came along.

SharkHunter wrote:

Duckk wrote:http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/306/1

...we know that ships can open ports and tow things through them (like KHII which has it's own layered defenses)... It seems likely that tractors strong enough to hold a decoy in place even as far back as HMS-Fearless CL-56 (OBS) would also be powerful enough to hold a CM size object generating an oblique wedge in a similar but more useful position.

I assume you're thinking of using that drone/missile like object to shield the ship by generating a 'sideways' wedge to cover the gap normally covered by a sidewall? It's an interesting idea, but there's a problem, I think. Ports can be opened in sidewalls, but unless it's been superseded, Weber mentioned in the appendix to The Short Victorious War that you can't open ports in wedges. And if that drone is using one band of its wedge (say the belly, for the sake of discussion) as a pseudo-sidewall for the ship, then the roof band will be in between the drone and the ship, preventing the ship from towing the drone since you can't open a hole in the band for the tractor to pass through.

I will admit it does seem odd that military ships manage to generate a two-layer wedge. I'm not sure why that's possible when a two-layer sidewall isn't.

SharkHunter wrote:

Duckk wrote:http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/306/1

Yep, read that infodump before I posted my "lieutenant's thought". Except that a military impeller wedge has two layers, and we know that ships can open ports and tow things through them (like KHII which has it's own layered defenses), I'd leave it at that -- and KHII isn't an "energy range" defender anyway.

No. Nonononono. Military impellers have two layers, yes. But at no point are holes opened in them, for anything. The Keyhole platforms and all weaponry deploy through the sidewalls. The Wedge itself is completely impenetrable, even from the inside.

Remember, the geeks in GRAM are supposed to rethink everything and come up with new ways to use WHATEVER tech. It seems likely that tractors strong enough to hold a decoy in place even as far back as HMS-Fearless CL-56 (OBS) would also be powerful enough to hold a CM size object generating an oblique wedge in a similar but more useful position.

It doesn't seem as though tractors can lock on to wedges, so that idea's probably out too.

I'd argue that there was simply never a need for it until pods became effective again and DDM/MDM missiles came along.

Look, not to burst your bubble or anything, but if Word of God says that sidewalls cannot be doubled up in the same way as wedges can, then that's it. Unless Word of God changes, and there's no indication that it will, that's the end of the discussion.

--snipping--

The E wrote:No. Nonononono. Military impellers have two layers, yes. But at no point are holes opened in them, for anything. The Keyhole platforms and all weaponry deploy through the sidewalls. The Wedge itself is completely impenetrable, even from the inside.

SharkHunger wrote:Remember, the geeks in GRAM are supposed to rethink everything and come up with new ways to use WHATEVER tech. It seems likely that tractors strong enough to hold a decoy in place even as far back as HMS-Fearless CL-56 (OBS) would also be powerful enough to hold a CM size object generating an oblique wedge in a similar but more useful position.

Look, not to burst your bubble or anything, but if Word of God says that sidewalls cannot be doubled up in the same way as wedges can, then that's it. Unless Word of God changes, and there's no indication that it will, that's the end of the discussion.

True, but RFC/MWW has been known to come up with new ideas and talk them over in the background, and lets us play here in the mean time.

My point is that in theory a two layer wedge is impossible unless the first layer can be penetrated at least one way to allow the energy to power the 2nd wedge. Add in that sidewalls are single layer and weaker plus they have ports that can tow BIG things, and CMs by size are very small. I'm not saying that "towed object" is anything more than an impeller shield in space outside the sidewall tech that the RMN/GA already that makes it marginally harder to get the needed angle for a 1:X0,000 or smaller angle laser hit. A few of towed "these whatevers" aft should also be able to mostly block an up the kilt missile shot as well.

So it is doubled sidewalls.
I initially saw Duel Sidewalls.

Sidewalls for dueling?

MuonNeutrino wrote: And if that drone is using one band of its wedge (say the belly, for the sake of discussion) as a pseudo-sidewall for the ship, then the roof band will be in between the drone and the ship, preventing the ship from towing the drone since you can't open a hole in the band for the tractor to pass through.

If it's a matter of having a drone with a wedge operating in a portion of the area not covered by the ship's wedge, it'd be enough for the drone to fly alongside on its own power, without needing it beamed over. Recon and decoy drones have a whole lot of endurance, especially relative to the period between shots arriving near the ship and battle being decided. For that matter, far smaller, cheaper, more numerous, and even more expendable drones could do that.

Even if you did want an arrangement with beamed power, you may be able to do it with an intermediary parasite, downward or upward from the side of the ship, but still well clear of its wedge, so that there would be clear lines from ship to intermediate parasite and from it to the side-wedge drone.

There's another issue of firing or sensing through all this wedge clutter, and coordinating movements so that none of the parasites are killed by radical maneuvers by the parent or one another. Even more parasites to handle the clutter - it's the basic function of Keyhole, after all - may address that first issue though.

It's a variation on the convenient-reusable-wedge defense plan that's come up here before (often). I'm not personally up to speed on what the forum-mind thinks about those.

Perhaps a part of Keyhole-III? Generates a vertical oriented similar in design to that of bow-/stern-walls.

It can be turned on and off easily, it has a lot of brute power to generate a very powerful sidewall. Given the position of the KH platform, it's not trying to turn a sidewall on inside the wedge, so it wouldn't fall under the pearls saying 'no'.

Of course, it also wouldn't have a wedge for it to stitch together, so it's definitely going to have to be bow- or stern-wall generators. Because the first stage doesn't actually stitch the wedges together, it just generates a buckler. So the notional Keyhole-III could generate the same vertical oriented buckler, outside of the ship sidewall and helps deflect more hits.

And Keyhole platforms have their own fusion generators now I think, or is that only the Sys-Def variant of KH platforms that have local fusion power

Somtaaw wrote:Perhaps a part of Keyhole-III? Generates a vertical oriented similar in design to that of bow-/stern-walls.

It can be turned on and off easily, it has a lot of brute power to generate a very powerful sidewall. Given the position of the KH platform, it's not trying to turn a sidewall on inside the wedge, so it wouldn't fall under the pearls saying 'no'.

Of course, it also wouldn't have a wedge for it to stitch together, so it's definitely going to have to be bow- or stern-wall generators. Because the first stage doesn't actually stitch the wedges together, it just generates a buckler. So the notional Keyhole-III could generate the same vertical oriented buckler, outside of the ship sidewall and helps deflect more hits.

And Keyhole platforms have their own fusion generators now I think, or is that only the Sys-Def variant of KH platforms that have local fusion power

A Keyhole platform of whatever sort, outside the wedge and with its own power systems (or tremendous beamed power, or both) could use a spherical sidewall like fortresses.