Ideal Pirate Ship Configeration And Size? ...

During the age of sail most piracy was committed by small fast ships, namely the AOS equivalent of FF/DD/CL = 9th/8th/7th rates these ships were usually carried 8 to 20 guns ranging in size from 9# to 18#. They would often up gun the ships in question, namely going from a 9# to a 12# gun. Most privateers were usually up gunned East Indiamen carrying in the mid-twenties for guns. Your typical East Indiamen would add carronades and increase its shot size. IIRC JP JONES USS Bonhamm Richard was an up gunned Indiaman with 42 guns.

saber964 wrote:During the age of sail most piracy was committed by small fast ships, namely the AOS equivalent of FF/DD/CL = 9th/8th/7th rates these ships were usually carried 8 to 20 guns ranging in size from 9# to 18#. They would often up gun the ships in question, namely going from a 9# to a 12# gun. Most privateers were usually up gunned East Indiamen carrying in the mid-twenties for guns. Your typical East Indiamen would add carronades and increase its shot size. IIRC JP JONES USS Bonhamm Richard was an up gunned Indiaman with 42 guns.

Frigates were large 6th rates, 5th rates and single decked 4th rates in the age of sail. Usually they were any ship with 28 or more guns which had its entire primary armament in a single deck. There weren't any 7th, 8th, or 9th rates because ships below 6th rate were unrated

Roguevictory wrote:

saber964 wrote:During the age of sail most piracy was committed by small fast ships, namely the AOS equivalent of FF/DD/CL = 9th/8th/7th rates these ships were usually carried 8 to 20 guns ranging in size from 9# to 18#. They would often up gun the ships in question, namely going from a 9# to a 12# gun. Most privateers were usually up gunned East Indiamen carrying in the mid-twenties for guns. Your typical East Indiamen would add cannonades and increase its shot size. IIRC JP JONES USS Bonhomie Richard was an up gunned Indiaman with 42 guns.

Frigates were large 6th rates, 5th rates and single decked 4th rates in the age of sail. Usually they were any ship with 28 or more guns which had its entire primary armament in a single deck. There weren't any 7th, 8th, or 9th rates because ships below 6th rate were unrated

It depends on the era mostly frigates carried from 32 to 50 guns with the most common being 36 and 38 guns. When the USN commissioned the Constitution class they significantly out gunned and out classed RN frigates until the RN built 50 gun frigates. The split in the eras happened during the 1790's when the ships grew in size. Prior to the 1790's a 1st rate was 90 to 100 guns but after it was over 100 guns to as many 136 guns(Santissima Trinidad)

How about this for a proposal? Take a freighter meant for shipping perishable goods, fit a few weapons, say 6 missile tubes total, 6 lasers, and some point defense clusters. Fit some of the holds with extra bunkerage, others with life support and quarters for prize crews. Add on the best sensors you can afford, and disguise the weapons ports, or at least most of them, as armed freighters have been shown before without being suspicious in and of themselves. As a freighter meant for shipping perishable goods it will be faster than the vast majority of other freighters to make its delivery before the goods spoil, but it doesn't scream warship, which is why the Germans made Auxiliary Cruisers out of this type of ship in World War II. You have plenty of room for fuel, crews and supplies so you can cruise for a long time. As a freighter its operating costs should be affordable. Won't do be able to outrun a real warship if you get fingered without a huge head start, but you are less likely to be fingered as a pirate in the first place

RamscoopRaider wrote:How about this for a proposal? Take a freighter meant for shipping perishable goods, fit a few weapons, say 6 missile tubes total, 6 lasers, and some point defense clusters. Fit some of the holds with extra bunkerage, others with life support and quarters for prize crews. Add on the best sensors you can afford, and disguise the weapons ports, or at least most of them, as armed freighters have been shown before without being suspicious in and of themselves. As a freighter meant for shipping perishable goods it will be faster than the vast majority of other freighters to make its delivery before the goods spoil, but it doesn't scream warship, which is why the Germans made Auxiliary Cruisers out of this type of ship in World War II. You have plenty of room for fuel, crews and supplies so you can cruise for a long time. As a freighter its operating costs should be affordable. Won't do be able to outrun a real warship if you get fingered without a huge head start, but you are less likely to be fingered as a pirate in the first place

The problem is freighters and pirates have different flight profiles. The freighter openly comes out of hyper near the limit and heads into the planet/station. It leaves the planet/station and heads to the hyper limit and leaves normal space as soon as it crosses. Pirates, cruise slowly at the hyper limit waiting for a freighter to pop out of hyper and try enter the system stealthly. The pirate can't follow the freighter profile as it will eventually get into visual range and be busted. The freighter creeping along the hyper limit is outside of the normal profile for a freighter, so would be busted.

I see the advantage of an armed freighter, is you can go into areas for other opportunities, like smuggling. and catch the occasional freighter that happens to be in range and on a similar flight profile. You really won't have the overtake to do the traditional hide and pounce pirating as you will be almost as slow as your prey.

I see the advantage of the CL pirate as you have the accel you need to run down most freighters that come out of hyper near you. You are big enough to carry the bunkerage for long patrols and the crew to man prizes. Unless you catch a sneaky navy commander pretending to be a merchant, you usually can outrun the warships that answers a distress call. An older CL is cheap and easy to replace on the black market.

Kizarvexis wrote:

RamscoopRaider wrote:How about this for a proposal? Take a freighter meant for shipping perishable goods, fit a few weapons, say 6 missile tubes total, 6 lasers, and some point defense clusters. Fit some of the holds with extra bunkerage, others with life support and quarters for prize crews. Add on the best sensors you can afford, and disguise the weapons ports, or at least most of them, as armed freighters have been shown before without being suspicious in and of themselves. As a freighter meant for shipping perishable goods it will be faster than the vast majority of other freighters to make its delivery before the goods spoil, but it doesn't scream warship, which is why the Germans made Auxiliary Cruisers out of this type of ship in World War II. You have plenty of room for fuel, crews and supplies so you can cruise for a long time. As a freighter its operating costs should be affordable. Won't do be able to outrun a real warship if you get fingered without a huge head start, but you are less likely to be fingered as a pirate in the first place

The problem is freighters and pirates have different flight profiles. The freighter openly comes out of hyper near the limit and heads into the planet/station. It leaves the planet/station and heads to the hyper limit and leaves normal space as soon as it crosses. Pirates, cruise slowly at the hyper limit waiting for a freighter to pop out of hyper and try enter the system stealthly. The pirate can't follow the freighter profile as it will eventually get into visual range and be busted. The freighter creeping along the hyper limit is outside of the normal profile for a freighter, so would be busted.

I see the advantage of an armed freighter, is you can go into areas for other opportunities, like smuggling. and catch the occasional freighter that happens to be in range and on a similar flight profile. You really won't have the overtake to do the traditional hide and pounce pirating as you will be almost as slow as your prey.

I see the advantage of the CL pirate as you have the accel you need to run down most freighters that come out of hyper near you. You are big enough to carry the bunkerage for long patrols and the crew to man prizes. Unless you catch a sneaky navy commander pretending to be a merchant, you usually can outrun the warships that answers a distress call. An older CL is cheap and easy to replace on the black market.

This is called a Q-ship.

Don

Kizarvexis wrote:

RamscoopRaider wrote:How about this for a proposal? Take a freighter meant for shipping perishable goods, fit a few weapons, say 6 missile tubes total, 6 lasers, and some point defense clusters. Fit some of the holds with extra bunkerage, others with life support and quarters for prize crews. Add on the best sensors you can afford, and disguise the weapons ports, or at least most of them, as armed freighters have been shown before without being suspicious in and of themselves. As a freighter meant for shipping perishable goods it will be faster than the vast majority of other freighters to make its delivery before the goods spoil, but it doesn't scream warship, which is why the Germans made Auxiliary Cruisers out of this type of ship in World War II. You have plenty of room for fuel, crews and supplies so you can cruise for a long time. As a freighter its operating costs should be affordable. Won't do be able to outrun a real warship if you get fingered without a huge head start, but you are less likely to be fingered as a pirate in the first place

The problem is freighters and pirates have different flight profiles. The freighter openly comes out of hyper near the limit and heads into the planet/station. It leaves the planet/station and heads to the hyper limit and leaves normal space as soon as it crosses. Pirates, cruise slowly at the hyper limit waiting for a freighter to pop out of hyper and try enter the system stealthly. The pirate can't follow the freighter profile as it will eventually get into visual range and be busted. The freighter creeping along the hyper limit is outside of the normal profile for a freighter, so would be busted.

I see the advantage of an armed freighter, is you can go into areas for other opportunities, like smuggling. and catch the occasional freighter that happens to be in range and on a similar flight profile. You really won't have the overtake to do the traditional hide and pounce pirating as you will be almost as slow as your prey.

Except that systems, in which pirates operate, do not have the kind of sensor system to detect an abnormal flight profile. A converted freighter would therefore allow a pirate to switch at will between prowling for prizes and pretending to be a legitimate freighter. If I were a pirate I would want that. Almost as much as I want the lower operating cost a civilian design would give me compared to a military design.

I see the advantage of the CL pirate as you have the accel you need to run down most freighters that come out of hyper near you. You are big enough to carry the bunkerage for long patrols and the crew to man prizes. Unless you catch a sneaky navy commander pretending to be a merchant, you usually can outrun the warships that answers a distress call. An older CL is cheap and easy to replace on the black market.

In honor among enemies the corrupt governor, was very upset that Honor would not sell of the captured FF as a prize but destroyed instead. That indicates that pirate FF are hard to replace. Therefore a pirate CL is even harder to replace, which means it is expensive.
Now we discussed before how an FF is almost as good in being a pirate as a CL. Yes endurance might be a problem but the size of your guns do not matter against an unarmed unarmored freighter.
We do not have any textev about the economics of piracy, except that the People Navy in Exile struggled to stay afloat operating as pirates before they found a patron. The PNE had modern CLs CAs and BCs and military ideas about maintenance. However I think if you are using a CL as a pirate your operating costs will eat into your profit margin to much.

Look at whit today's pirates. Most of them are using wooden boats, with old speed boat motors and rusty AKs. I have never heard of one the brought an old Sovjet warship.

Kizarvexis wrote:

RamscoopRaider wrote:How about this for a proposal? Take a freighter meant for shipping perishable goods, fit a few weapons, say 6 missile tubes total, 6 lasers, and some point defense clusters. Fit some of the holds with extra bunkerage, others with life support and quarters for prize crews. Add on the best sensors you can afford, and disguise the weapons ports, or at least most of them, as armed freighters have been shown before without being suspicious in and of themselves. As a freighter meant for shipping perishable goods it will be faster than the vast majority of other freighters to make its delivery before the goods spoil, but it doesn't scream warship, which is why the Germans made Auxiliary Cruisers out of this type of ship in World War II. You have plenty of room for fuel, crews and supplies so you can cruise for a long time. As a freighter its operating costs should be affordable. Won't do be able to outrun a real warship if you get fingered without a huge head start, but you are less likely to be fingered as a pirate in the first place

The problem is freighters and pirates have different flight profiles. The freighter openly comes out of hyper near the limit and heads into the planet/station. It leaves the planet/station and heads to the hyper limit and leaves normal space as soon as it crosses. Pirates, cruise slowly at the hyper limit waiting for a freighter to pop out of hyper and try enter the system stealthly. The pirate can't follow the freighter profile as it will eventually get into visual range and be busted. The freighter creeping along the hyper limit is outside of the normal profile for a freighter, so would be busted.

I see the advantage of an armed freighter, is you can go into areas for other opportunities, like smuggling. and catch the occasional freighter that happens to be in range and on a similar flight profile. You really won't have the overtake to do the traditional hide and pounce pirating as you will be almost as slow as your prey.

I see the advantage of the CL pirate as you have the accel you need to run down most freighters that come out of hyper near you. You are big enough to carry the bunkerage for long patrols and the crew to man prizes. Unless you catch a sneaky navy commander pretending to be a merchant, you usually can outrun the warships that answers a distress call. An older CL is cheap and easy to replace on the black market.

Yes but so would a warship caught lurking in the outer system. Of course a freighter stooging around the outer system could be conducting some shady business like smuggling, but smuggling is less of a priority than piracy

Not sure about almost as slow as a normal freighter. Some of the Refrigerator ships turned Raiders of the WWII era were near as fast as a WWI era battleship at 14-20 knots. That would translate to mid to high 300's of gravities in Honorverse terms. Now I don't think Mr. Weber has ever said what kind of acceleration these type of ships typically have in the Honorverse. Given that the average Freighter in the Honorverse cannot make more than 200gs flat out, even a 300g ship would have a 50% edge. Still we can't be sure of the type of acceleration of this type of ship

With a freighter if the piracy business gets too hot you can always turn smuggler or, heaven forbid, go legit

Edit: Not exactly certain it is cheap and easy to get CLs off the black market, we see a fair amount of them in Silesia, but those pirates mostly have cozy relationships with the local governments. Not sure how easy the average pirate outside Silesia can get real warships

RamscoopRaider wrote:

Kizarvexis wrote:
The problem is freighters and pirates have different flight profiles. The freighter openly comes out of hyper near the limit and heads into the planet/station. It leaves the planet/station and heads to the hyper limit and leaves normal space as soon as it crosses. Pirates, cruise slowly at the hyper limit waiting for a freighter to pop out of hyper and try enter the system stealthly. The pirate can't follow the freighter profile as it will eventually get into visual range and be busted. The freighter creeping along the hyper limit is outside of the normal profile for a freighter, so would be busted.

I see the advantage of an armed freighter, is you can go into areas for other opportunities, like smuggling. and catch the occasional freighter that happens to be in range and on a similar flight profile. You really won't have the overtake to do the traditional hide and pounce pirating as you will be almost as slow as your prey.

I see the advantage of the CL pirate as you have the accel you need to run down most freighters that come out of hyper near you. You are big enough to carry the bunkerage for long patrols and the crew to man prizes. Unless you catch a sneaky navy commander pretending to be a merchant, you usually can outrun the warships that answers a distress call. An older CL is cheap and easy to replace on the black market.

Yes but so would a warship caught lurking in the outer system. Of course a freighter stooging around the outer system could be conducting some shady business like smuggling, but smuggling is less of a priority than piracy

Not sure about almost as slow as a normal freighter. Some of the Refrigerator ships turned Raiders of the WWII era were near as fast as a WWI era battleship at 14-20 knots. That would translate to mid to high 300's of gravities in Honorverse terms. Now I don't think Mr. Weber has ever said what kind of acceleration these type of ships typically have in the Honorverse. Given that the average Freighter in the Honorverse cannot make more than 200gs flat out, even a 300g ship would have a 50% edge. Still we can't be sure of the type of acceleration of this type of ship

With a freighter if the piracy business gets too hot you can always turn smuggler or, heaven forbid, go legit

Edit: Not exactly certain it is cheap and easy to get CLs off the black market, we see a fair amount of them in Silesia, but those pirates mostly have cozy relationships with the local governments. Not sure how easy the average pirate outside Silesia can get real warships

How about a passenger liner? In SITS2, there is a 211 Kton "Pegasus" type liner. It holds 5000 passengers in mid-level comfort and 35Ktons of cargo, with about a dozen shuttles. In the notes it says there are a variety of subtypes, and while this one only moved at ~200 gravities, it would not surprise me if there was an "express" model with military type comp and nodes - because passengers will pay more for a little speed.

Any "stooging" around could be waved away as this being a specialty "cruise", with normally ground bound passengers paying money just to swan around in space for whatever reason.

As for weapons, all you need is the weapons outfit found on any old LAC - a couple box launchers and some small lasers and firecontrol. You hide the box launchers behind some broadside cargo doors and steal some state rooms for the lasers. You don't need much, just enough weapons to show you are serious and can really back your threats. Yes, you will be dog chow if a military ship shows up, but them's the risks.

The only problem is such a design will have weak or no sidewalls, little or no ECM, and little or no active defenses. But it will be cheaper, easier to maintain, and easier acquire them a military ship.

Theemile wrote:

How about a passenger liner? In SITS2, there is a 211 Kton "Pegasus" type liner. It holds 5000 passengers in mid-level comfort and 35Ktons of cargo, with about a dozen shuttles. In the notes it says there are a variety of subtypes, and while this one only moved at ~200 gravities, it would not surprise me if there was an "express" model with military type comp and nodes - because passengers will pay more for a little speed.

Any "stooging" around could be waved away as this being a specialty "cruise", with normally ground bound passengers paying money just to swan around in space for whatever reason.

As for weapons, all you need is the weapons outfit found on any old LAC - a couple box launchers and some small lasers and firecontrol. You hide the box launchers behind some broadside cargo doors and steal some state rooms for the lasers. You don't need much, just enough weapons to show you are serious and can really back your threats. Yes, you will be dog chow if a military ship shows up, but them's the risks.

The only problem is such a design will have weak or no sidewalls, little or no ECM, and little or no active defenses. But it will be cheaper, easier to maintain, and easier acquire them a military ship.

We've already discussed the fast liners that Hauptman was using for passenger service to Silesia, the Atlas class I think. Its legs would be a bit better than what you are suggesting. But your proposal also works.

I still think that adding a bay for a half dozen LACs to the Q-ship idea increases both flexibility and survivability since the mother ship would not have to come within range of its prey.

Don