Counter missile pods

I was under the impression Viper anti-LAC missiles were warhead-less. That they were just functionally larger versions of the Anti-Tank impeller missiles we saw in the early books.

The first version that I recall was the beginning of uh, tSVW I think, the assassination of InSec chairman Palmer-Levy.

The second occasion was the attempted assassination of Honor during Flag in Exile, by Steadholder Burdette's armsmen.

There was also some usage on Solarian planets, in the later books, in the rebellion uprisings being instigated by Firebrand, but those were true AT missiles that seemed to operate similar to current generation AT missiles and would fly up and then strike downwards, more like mini Orbital Kinetic Strikes.

Even a small wedge impacting a LAC, would severely damage it, look at what happened during OBS, CL Fearless totally incapacitating the Peep dispatch boat. One Viper missile would disable the target LAC's wedge, the second Viper would physically impact the LAC, and we get a repeat of Cordelia Randsom's PNS Tepes (badda big boom)

The only major difference between the standard Mk. 31 CM, and the Viper, was the Viper had a small AI package, so it turned into a Fire & Forget CM.

Interestingly enough, the impeller missile system that killed Secretary of InSec Constance Palmer-Levy, was also named a Viper missile.

Somtaaw wrote:I was under the impression Viper anti-LAC missiles were warhead-less. That they were just functionally larger versions of the Anti-Tank impeller missiles we saw in the early books.

The first version that I recall was the beginning of uh, tSVW I think, the assassination of InSec chairman Palmer-Levy.

The second occasion was the attempted assassination of Honor during Flag in Exile, by Steadholder Burdette's armsmen.

There was also some usage on Solarian planets, in the later books, in the rebellion uprisings being instigated by Firebrand, but those were true AT missiles that seemed to operate similar to current generation AT missiles and would fly up and then strike downwards, more like mini Orbital Kinetic Strikes.

Even a small wedge impacting a LAC, would severely damage it, look at what happened during OBS, CL Fearless totally incapacitating the Peep dispatch boat. One Viper missile would disable the target LAC's wedge, the second Viper would physically impact the LAC, and we get a repeat of Cordelia Randsom's PNS Tepes (badda big boom)

The only major difference between the standard Mk. 31 CM, and the Viper, was the Viper had a small AI package, so it turned into a Fire & Forget CM.

Interestingly enough, the impeller missile system that killed Secretary of InSec Constance Palmer-Levy, was also named a Viper missile.

Nope, an antiLAC Viper has a small warhead, one lasing rod, and an improved AI. Wedge contact works fine for small craft, but on something large enough to mount a sidewall, it would never work. Sidewalls were designed in the first place to defeat so called "impeller head" missiles.

Somtaaw wrote:I was under the impression Viper anti-LAC missiles were warhead-less. That they were just functionally larger versions of the Anti-Tank impeller missiles we saw in the early books.

The first version that I recall was the beginning of uh, tSVW I think, the assassination of InSec chairman Palmer-Levy.

The second occasion was the attempted assassination of Honor during Flag in Exile, by Steadholder Burdette's armsmen.

There was also some usage on Solarian planets, in the later books, in the rebellion uprisings being instigated by Firebrand, but those were true AT missiles that seemed to operate similar to current generation AT missiles and would fly up and then strike downwards, more like mini Orbital Kinetic Strikes.

Even a small wedge impacting a LAC, would severely damage it, look at what happened during OBS, CL Fearless totally incapacitating the Peep dispatch boat. One Viper missile would disable the target LAC's wedge, the second Viper would physically impact the LAC, and we get a repeat of Cordelia Randsom's PNS Tepes (badda big boom)

The only major difference between the standard Mk. 31 CM, and the Viper, was the Viper had a small AI package, so it turned into a Fire & Forget CM.

Interestingly enough, the impeller missile system that killed Secretary of InSec Constance Palmer-Levy, was also named a Viper missile.

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465723605

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465723662

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465723786

The warhead is the ball behind the laserhead and nestled into the grav-focusing wedges.

As for a Viper using its wedge to take out a LAC - won't happen. The LAC wedge is much larger than that of a missile (or CM), and so would overpower the missile wedge. Same way that Honor's Fearless CL took out the dispatch boat's wedge - a CL wedge is much larger than a DBs wedge.

MaxxQ wrote:Sure it is. It just happens to ba a CM that can also take out LACs with a laserhead.

For that matter, full-up MK-16s or MK-23s could be considered CMs if they are used for that role. A bit wasteful of resources, but it's possible.

Weird Harold wrote:Even when used in a CM role, a Viper relies on Wedge fratricide instead of its anti-LAC warhead.

Yes, it does. And your point?

The point is that the Viper anti-LAC missile wasn't built at considerable additional expense to kill attack missiles. It happens to be built on a CM body but that does NOT make it a counter-missile.

As you say, it is a "bit wasteful of resources" but killing attack missiles is strictly a secondary function of a specialist LAC killing missile.

PS: even with a warhead, a Viper wouldn't have room or power budget for a "massive ECM package" or the energy budget to power it -- even if anyone was silly enough to suggest putting vipers in a CM Pod where the extra expense and capability would be wasted.

MaxxQ wrote:http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465723605

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465723662

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465723786

You have those mis-labeled as "Viper CM"

Ref:

House of Steel
~~Page 300 wrote: The Katana carries five high-speed launchers capable of launching either standard Mk31 counter-missiles or the Mk9 Viper anti-LAC missile. These off-bore launchers are capable of launching into virtually any open aspect, including directly aft.

Every mention I can find gives counter-missile as a secondary role/use for an anti-LAC missile.

Don't argue with the guy who is works with David on visualizing stuff. He has access to a lot of info you don't. It's a lot like arguing with David that you understand the Honorverse better than he does.

kzt wrote:Don't argue with the guy who is works with David on visualizing stuff. He has access to a lot of info you don't. It's a lot like arguing with David that you understand the Honorverse better than he does.

So I should argue with textev that contradicts him?

Weird Harold wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465723605

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465723662

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465723786

You have those mis-labeled as "Viper CM"

Ref:

House of Steel
~~Page 300 wrote: The Katana carries five high-speed launchers capable of launching either standard Mk31 counter-missiles or the Mk9 Viper anti-LAC missile. These off-bore launchers are capable of launching into virtually any open aspect, including directly aft.

Every mention I can find gives counter-missile as a secondary role/use for an anti-LAC missile.

My spreadsheet that has all missile specs for all major navies in the HV, that was given to me by Tom Pope, has Viper MK-9 Anti-LAC Missile under the Countermissiles header. It is a CM with an additional function - taking out LACs.

One of the reasons it was developed is so that LACs carrying them don't compromise their loadout by carrying half standard CMs and half anti-LAC missiles. Also, considering they use the same laserhead as the old MK-13 anti-ship missile, enough of them launched at older or smaller warships could very well mission-kill or even completely take them out.

Maybe they should be classed as Anti-ship Missiles, based on a function they have?

Go ahead and disagree with me, but it won't change anything.

Weird Harold wrote:

kzt wrote:Don't argue with the guy who is works with David on visualizing stuff. He has access to a lot of info you don't. It's a lot like arguing with David that you understand the Honorverse better than he does.

So I should argue with textev that contradicts him?

Go ahead and disagree with me, but it won't change anything.

Somtaaw wrote:I was under the impression Viper anti-LAC missiles were warhead-less. That they were just functionally larger versions of the Anti-Tank impeller missiles we saw in the early books.

The first version that I recall was the beginning of uh, tSVW I think, the assassination of InSec chairman Palmer-Levy.

The second occasion was the attempted assassination of Honor during Flag in Exile, by Steadholder Burdette's armsmen.

There was also some usage on Solarian planets, in the later books, in the rebellion uprisings being instigated by Firebrand, but those were true AT missiles that seemed to operate similar to current generation AT missiles and would fly up and then strike downwards, more like mini Orbital Kinetic Strikes.

Even a small wedge impacting a LAC, would severely damage it, look at what happened during OBS, CL Fearless totally incapacitating the Peep dispatch boat. One Viper missile would disable the target LAC's wedge, the second Viper would physically impact the LAC, and we get a repeat of Cordelia Randsom's PNS Tepes (badda big boom)

The only major difference between the standard Mk. 31 CM, and the Viper, was the Viper had a small AI package, so it turned into a Fire & Forget CM.

Interestingly enough, the impeller missile system that killed Secretary of InSec Constance Palmer-Levy, was also named a Viper missile.

There are two different kinds of missiles named Viper. One is a Havenite hand-held anti-tank missile. The other is a Manticoran missile with a small warhead and single lasing rod, used as a combination counter-missile and anti-LAC missile. The Manticoran missile is far larger than the Havenite anti-tank missile; the Havenite missile is the size of a bazooka rocket, while the Manticoran missile is bigger than a man.

SWM wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Thinking about this one a little bit more, but not in the traditional "CM wedge on shipkiller wedge" sense of a CM, and
definitely with a WAY different modus operandi. I'd have the
"first stage" impellers for a long range CM solution push the pod, not individual missiles].

See David Weber's comments about powered pods:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/176/1

For a shipkiller, yes. But long range for a CM is simply "outside the range of current CM technology, so a "CM Pod" would presumably have totally different "shaping" and mission requirements. Putting a micro-fusion reactor in a "CM Pod" would give it the ability to power up the CMs remotely and perhaps include some sort of CM control in the pod. Likely the thing would be at least drone size and I am not at all sure how a warship would deploy them (hence the BuWeaps and BuShips aren't likely to develop them). Maybe they'd only be for fleet level engagements, deployed from Ammo Ships a la Battle of Spindle.

But we're *by proxy* stuck here on Gryphon having had GRAM shot out from under us... so we forum geeks gotta do something for a while...like think up crazy new weapon & defensive ideas them old coots don't think will work... so the old coots can shoot'em down. Or not.

Battle space wise, I'd rather have "fifty guys on each side of the valley of death" trying to wipe out the oncoming tanks way up the valley than ten at the neck of the valley close in front of my keester, so these would be "clear of the gunsmoke, fire into the globe where the enemy shipkillers have to pass through style" weapons. Be interesting what a few dozen of these would do to a MAN ghost ship if they found one as well.