calculating machines on Safehold

Merlin introduced the abacus in book 1.
Does Charis have mechanical calculating machines which are more recent than that?
I suppose slide-rules would also count, but I'm mainly thinking of things like

Pascaline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h71HAJWnVU
Arithmometer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyCrDI7hRpE
Pinwheel Calculators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXMuJco8onQ
Curtas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loI1Kwed8Pk

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For whichever of those Charis doesn't have (which I believe is all of them), how difficult would it be for Charis to make them? Since I don't recall any mention of such things in the books, I'm presuming the answers are "doable, but neither logistics nor the Royal College would get enough benefit for it to be worth producing them".

Although I have never done any woodworking or metalworking, it certainly seems like Charis would be able to make arithmometers, and perhaps even pinwheel calculators. For pinwheel calculators, my guess is that the limiting factor regarding manufacturing them would be either getting low-enough friction between the slotted rings and the pins or the non-trivial number of springs involved.

Denpalar wrote:Merlin introduced the abacus in book 1.
Does Charis have mechanical calculating machines which are more recent than that?
I suppose slide-rules would also count, but I'm mainly thinking of things like

Pascaline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h71HAJWnVU
Arithmometer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyCrDI7hRpE
Pinwheel Calculators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXMuJco8onQ
Curtas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loI1Kwed8Pk

.


For whichever of those Charis doesn't have (which I believe is all of them), how difficult would it be for Charis to make them? Since I don't recall any mention of such things in the books, I'm presuming the answers are "doable, but neither logistics nor the Royal College would get enough benefit for it to be worth producing them".

Although I have never done any woodworking or metalworking, it certainly seems like Charis would be able to make arithmometers, and perhaps even pinwheel calculators. For pinwheel calculators, my guess is that the limiting factor regarding manufacturing them would be either getting low-enough friction between the slotted rings and the pins or the non-trivial number of springs involved.

If you can make a good clock any of these is possible, but in the short term slide rules (both linear and round) will be the answer to 95% of the calculation needs in industry and engineering. The accountants will want mechanical calculators before the engineers will, as a slide rule has enough accuracy for most purposes (3 to 4 significant figures, with 5 on the larger sizes, and handling log and angular functions that most simple ).

I still miss my slide rule!

Denpalar wrote:Merlin introduced the abacus in book 1.
Does Charis have mechanical calculating machines which are more recent than that?
I suppose slide-rules would also count, but I'm mainly thinking of things like

Pascaline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h71HAJWnVU
Arithmometer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyCrDI7hRpE
Pinwheel Calculators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXMuJco8onQ
Curtas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loI1Kwed8Pk

.


For whichever of those Charis doesn't have (which I believe is all of them), how difficult would it be for Charis to make them? Since I don't recall any mention of such things in the books, I'm presuming the answers are "doable, but neither logistics nor the Royal College would get enough benefit for it to be worth producing them".

Although I have never done any woodworking or metalworking, it certainly seems like Charis would be able to make arithmometers, and perhaps even pinwheel calculators. For pinwheel calculators, my guess is that the limiting factor regarding manufacturing them would be either getting low-enough friction between the slotted rings and the pins or the non-trivial number of springs involved.

I am the proud owner of a Curta mechanical calculator. I would recommend going to http://www.curta.org to see them in action and the FASCINATING history - it really should be a movie.

As for Safehold, one of the joys of working this device is feeling the movement of very fine, precision gearing. Like the various Babbage machines, it needs precision measuring and machining to get the end product. At this point in the development of Safehold, I don't think that it is possible EXCEPT as a 'masterwork' done by a dedicated craftsman / watchmaker as a one-off rather than assembly-line production.

AirTech wrote:The accountants will want mechanical calculators before the engineers will, as a slide rule has enough accuracy for most purposes (3 to 4 significant figures, with 5 on the larger sizes, and handling log and angular functions that most simple ).

Oh absolutely. The first real life non-human computers were used to process reams of raw data: census information, tabulating artillery data, etc etc.

Basically, accuracy is not the issue. Sheer amount of number crunching is.

Now I'm wondering if the Inner Circle's access to Fed Tech computing systems might actually retard the development of early computing systems in Charis. They "know" that something like a Babbage machine won't work, so they never give projects like that proper funding.

Which is a good way to get blindsided by a technology that they "knew" was unworkable, but someone got it to work anyway.

evilauthor wrote:Oh absolutely. The first real life non-human computers were used to process reams of raw data: census information, tabulating artillery data, etc etc.

Basically, accuracy is not the issue. Sheer amount of number crunching is.

Now I'm wondering if the Inner Circle's access to Fed Tech computing systems might actually retard the development of early computing systems in Charis. They "know" that something like a Babbage machine won't work, so they never give projects like that proper funding.

Two comments with respect to Babbage:
1) His first machine was built to calculate log tables for engineering use. Basically, the process for calculating logs is tedious and when done by humans, error prone. At the time, Babbage found that no log table available to him was correct. He wanted more correctness, and more significant digits. It wasn't really about "reams of data".

2) I have no idea why they would think that babbage's machines would not work. He failed to build them, but it wasn't an issue with parts quality or design, it was a problem with funding, project management and personality conflicts. If Howsmyn were running the project, I'm pretty sure he'd succeed.

Question and a comment.
When did the Royal College come up with Logarithms?

Naval artillery already has variable charges and they can't be too far away for land-based artillery. The rapid pace of improvements in guns and propellants is going to create a mountain of calculations that will have to be done, possibly every time anything changes. Variable charges for mortars and angles means the fire direction center folks will have multiple solutions for every target. Solutions will have to have some sort of"confidence" factor as well as elevation of the tube and propellant charge.
If a gun has a four piece propellant charge the distance each charge will send the projectile has to be calculated for every possible elevation for the gun/tube. The same set of calculations has to be done for each type of projectile since each type will have its own flight characteristics. Changes to propellant, the projectile or the elevation control on the gun/tube will require a new set of calculations be done and published to be used by the firing batteries. I can see someone screaming quite loudly for some sort of calculating machine at the ICA's version of Ft Sill (the US Army's Artillery Center).

Howsmynn must have any number of processes that could be improved tremendously with some sort of calculating machine.

And considerthe help it give in logistics.

Denpalar wrote:Merlin introduced the abacus in book 1.
Does Charis have mechanical calculating machines which are more recent than that?
I suppose slide-rules would also count, but I'm mainly thinking of things like

Pascaline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h71HAJWnVU
Arithmometer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyCrDI7hRpE
Pinwheel Calculators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXMuJco8onQ
Curtas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loI1Kwed8Pk

.


For whichever of those Charis doesn't have (which I believe is all of them), how difficult would it be for Charis to make them? Since I don't recall any mention of such things in the books, I'm presuming the answers are "doable, but neither logistics nor the Royal College would get enough benefit for it to be worth producing them".

Although I have never done any woodworking or metalworking, it certainly seems like Charis would be able to make arithmometers, and perhaps even pinwheel calculators. For pinwheel calculators, my guess is that the limiting factor regarding manufacturing them would be either getting low-enough friction between the slotted rings and the pins or the non-trivial number of springs involved.

MTO wrote:

evilauthor wrote:Oh absolutely. The first real life non-human computers were used to process reams of raw data: census information, tabulating artillery data, etc etc.

Basically, accuracy is not the issue. Sheer amount of number crunching is.

Now I'm wondering if the Inner Circle's access to Fed Tech computing systems might actually retard the development of early computing systems in Charis. They "know" that something like a Babbage machine won't work, so they never give projects like that proper funding.

Two comments with respect to Babbage:
1) His first machine was built to calculate log tables for engineering use. Basically, the process for calculating logs is tedious and when done by humans, error prone. At the time, Babbage found that no log table available to him was correct. He wanted more correctness, and more significant digits. It wasn't really about "reams of data".

2) I have no idea why they would think that babbage's machines would not work. He failed to build them, but it wasn't an issue with parts quality or design, it was a problem with funding, project management and personality conflicts. If Howsmyn were running the project, I'm pretty sure he'd succeed.

Babbage also made his Difference Engine Mk 2 with a direct typesetting output. He found that even perfect master tables wound up with errors after somebody set the type to print up copies. No surprise - after a few hours doing a job that boring your brain goes on strike.
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Gentlemen! You can't fight in here - this is the War Room!

EdThomas wrote:Question and a comment.
When did the Royal College come up with Logarithms?

Naval artillery already has variable charges and they can't be too far away for land-based artillery. The rapid pace of improvements in guns and propellants is going to create a mountain of calculations that will have to be done, possibly every time anything changes. Variable charges for mortars and angles means the fire direction center folks will have multiple solutions for every target. Solutions will have to have some sort of"confidence" factor as well as elevation of the tube and propellant charge.
If a gun has a four piece propellant charge the distance each charge will send the projectile has to be calculated for every possible elevation for the gun/tube. The same set of calculations has to be done for each type of projectile since each type will have its own flight characteristics. Changes to propellant, the projectile or the elevation control on the gun/tube will require a new set of calculations be done and published to be used by the firing batteries. I can see someone screaming quite loudly for some sort of calculating machine at the ICA's version of Ft Sill (the US Army's Artillery Center).

Howsmynn must have any number of processes that could be improved tremendously with some sort of calculating machine.

would they maybe use nomograms for this?