Solarian League Navy Personal

JeffEngel wrote:For the comparison to work, the fleet at Pearl Harbor would have had to be the sort that Nelson had at Trafalgar (and still represent the cutting edge of U.S. naval capability), and IJN carrier task forces would have to have been able to put San Francisco, Chicago, and New York under their guns as easily as they did Hawaii. That's what the Solarian League faces. Like the U.S. would be in that comparison, it's still just plain too large for the Japanese to occupy effectively, and it's got vastly more wealth and industry by comparison. But it's got no ability to mobilize that in the form of competitive hardware any time soon.

A major break point was Midway. The IJN was never able to recover from the loss of carriers. Our carrier losses were quickly made up, and then the number of US carriers never really decreased. More importantly, the losses of trained aircrews meant that the remaining IJN carriers were operating with fewer and less trained pilots. After the "Marianas Turkey Shoot," the Japanese carriers were essentially undefended targets. By the time of the "GO" plan, their only purpose was to sucker Halsey away from the invasion force. If the Japanese surface force could break in and destroy 7th Fleet, the war would be extended, possibly forcing the Americans to some sort of negotiated settlement.

So far, all of the encounters between the RMN/GA and the SLN have resulted in unmitigated disasters for the Sollies. I don't see that turning around in the SLN's favor.

Fox2! wrote:[ If the Japanese surface force could break in and destroy 7th Fleet, the war would be extended, possibly forcing the Americans to some sort of negotiated settlement.

Yes, I realize that MacArthur and Nimitz were running two essentially parallel lines of attack, which didn't really intersect until the invasion of Okinawa, the first of the "Home Islands" to come under invasion. The loss of 7th Fleet and the Army invasion force in the Philippines would not have substantially affected the operations of the Marines and 3rd/5th Fleet in the Central Pacific. It would have delayed the invasion of Okinawa, and operations against the Japanese mainland.

Until the 502nd got in range of Japan. Which depended on the Navy's efforts, not MacArthur's. Once the Trinity event proved the product of the Manhattan Project, the end was written.

Nit pick: Filareta is 3rd Battle of Manticore.

BoMA is 2nd Manticore.

1st Manticore occurs in Call to Arms, ~300 years back.



dreamrider

My last post was rhetorical. We already know what the US military did. What they didn't do was was cut and run. What they didn't do was mutiny by the droves. They rolled up their sleeves and got down to business. It's human nature. I don't believe the League will win against Manticore and Haven but I do believe it will hurt them in the long run. I even believe the League will still be there when the dust settles, trimmed down and humbled to be sure but still there. Hell, I'll even venture to say that they'll even join the GA against the Alignment. The mutinies mentioned I believe aren't because of the harshness and horrors of battles faced and fought against ones enemies but of the harshness and horrors impinged by the government upon the governed and serving. The League and SLN ( both Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet) have in my opinion not gotten to that point yet. Even when the League loses to the GA they won't reach that point.

Yow wrote:My last post was rhetorical. We already know what the US military did. What they didn't do was was cut and run. What they didn't do was mutiny by the droves. They rolled up their sleeves and got down to business. It's human nature.

The analogy still does not work. The U.S. got a bit pasted at Pearl Harbor and early in the Pacific war, but they were never facing weapons against which they could do nothing but hurl ships to die. And - by the 1940's, certainly - there was a national identity and pride to defend.

The business of the SLN has been looking pretty and dangerous while feathering one's own nest. If they roll up their sleeves, that's still most of what they're prepared to do. Battle Fleet, at least. Frontier Fleet is ready to be privateers and to support the Gendarmerie with KEW's.

I'm sure Frontier Fleet units are decently prepared to blow away or capture undefended merchant ships and raid undefended planets. For that matter, they could teach BF how to do that if BF would listen. They've never fought a peer opponent, but I'll even grant that the SLN has competent officers, capable crews, and working ships that could make some decent showing in that case. But that's not what they are facing.

Furthermore, there aren't people willing to die for the League. Damien Harahap and Thandi Palane are typical examples of League officers. The League forces were a way to get ahead: Harahap cut out when he found a better way to make money and play the game; Palane did when she found an object of genuine, heartfelt loyalty - and that was a seventeen year-old pre-monarch and a single planet full of slaves yet to be liberated.

This is not asking the SLN to roll up their sleeves and get to work as the U.S. after Pearl Harbor. This is more like asking Japan to roll up their sleeves and get to work after Nagasaki - only instead of Japan as a national identity, make it the International Monetary Fund.

I don't believe the League will win against Manticore and Haven but I do believe it will hurt them in the long run. I even believe the League will still be there when the dust settles, trimmed down and humbled to be sure but still there. Hell, I'll even venture to say that they'll even join the GA against the Alignment. The mutinies mentioned I believe aren't because of the harshness and horrors of battles faced and fought against ones enemies but of the harshness and horrors impinged by the government upon the governed and serving. The League and SLN ( both Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet) have in my opinion not gotten to that point yet. Even when the League loses to the GA they won't reach that point.

Mutinies can happen for a lot of reasons. The Roman emperors did not treat the barbarian auxiliaries too badly consistently, but when the empire was in trouble, those auxiliaries opted to become raiders instead of defenders. The Kiel mutiny was in part due to sheer fear of the enemy and a sense that this attack was being ordered for bad and pointless reasons. The SLN fleets will find themselves in precisely that situation.

And the initiative doesn't always have to come from within the military. Barregos in the Maya Sector is about to break off and create an independent polity larger than the SEM, Republic of Haven, or Andermani Empire. That's going to depend on the military assessing their chances against the GA versus the rest of the SLN - and their respective willingness to fight, when the SLN would be fighting for... graft, really, and the Maya Detachment for a new, free nation organized for the benefit of its citizens.

JeffEngel wrote:And the initiative doesn't always have to come from within the military. Barregos in the Maya Sector is about to break off and create an independent polity larger than the SEM, Republic of Haven, or Andermani Empire. That's going to depend on the military assessing their chances against the GA versus the rest of the SLN - and their respective willingness to fight, when the SLN would be fighting for... graft, really, and the Maya Detachment for a new, free nation organized for the benefit of its citizens.

Are you sure about the size of the Maya Sector? The slimmed Republic of Haven still has about 150 systems, the Andermani has over 50 and the SEM is now up to ~55. There are only eight named systems in the Sector and no textev I remember gives any overall figures.

The impression I get is, it's fairly moderately sized - close to the SEM/AE in numbers, perhaps as few as 20, but has been well developed for some time under a coordinated long term plan.

dreamrider wrote:Nit pick: Filareta is 3rd Battle of Manticore.

BoMA is 2nd Manticore.

1st Manticore occurs in Call to Arms, ~300 years back.



dreamrider

Counter-nitpick. Though BoMA could have been called Second Manticore, that is not what it has been called in the text. BoMA is noted in the text as First Battle of Manticore. The battle in Call to Arms is too long ago to be counted in modern military history.

JeffEngel wrote:And the initiative doesn't always have to come from within the military. Barregos in the Maya Sector is about to break off and create an independent polity larger than the SEM, Republic of Haven, or Andermani Empire. That's going to depend on the military assessing their chances against the GA versus the rest of the SLN - and their respective willingness to fight, when the SLN would be fighting for... graft, really, and the Maya Detachment for a new, free nation organized for the benefit of its citizens.

Maya is only half the radius of the Talbot Quadrant. In volume, it is much smaller than Haven or the Anderman Empire, or even Silesia. And it has less than a dozen inhabited systems.

in 1941 AD the USA and Japan where equal in technology,
actualy the usa was advanced

theres no way to compare the 2nd ww in the pacific to

the GA versus solarian league


doesent work

dreamrider wrote:Nit pick: Filareta is 3rd Battle of Manticore.

BoMA is 2nd Manticore.

1st Manticore occurs in Call to Arms, ~300 years back.



dreamrider

Wasn't there also a battle against the "Free Brotherhood" (a roving band with some colony ships and some warships attacking fresh, undefended colonies) in Manticore space previous to Call to Arms which initiated the purchase of the original 9 BCs? Wouldn't that be BoMA 1, the Filareta be #4?

For that matter, wasn't there several battles in Yeltsin, during the early Masadan wars, that would push up the 4th battle of Yeltsin up several notches?