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Relative size of combatants

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:20 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:I'd guess that it might be for logistics reasons. Remember what we've seen are primarily frontier scouts who sometimes deal with bandits.

Most of their weapons work is going to be training, or hunting for food. Even fights with bandits (who shouldn't be carrying powerful spell weaponry) are rare. If all those soldiers carried spell based weapons that's a lot of charged crystals to bring forward, and/or a lot of time / energy from Gifted individuals to recharge them; just to keep up with the base-line non-combat weapons use.

It should cut way down on the crystal / charging logistics if those are restricted to support weapons (which are used far less often) and support spells (levitation, scouting, etc)

Because unlike the crystals the crossbow bolts can be retrieved and reused by totally unGifted individuals, and in an emergency serviceable replacements can be fashioned from local materials.


We've never seen the weapons used during Arcana's last home-system war. It's possible that their main armies (at least back then) did focus far more heavily on spell-driven weapons. Trading off the heavier logistics load to gain the amount of firepower they could deliver at the point of engagement.


I don't buy it. If the armaments for war are arcane powered weapons, then there would be a stockpile of powered weapons somewhere close to where the accumulators are kept. So when confronted with an unknown enemy with weapons much more powerful than standard acrana issued infantry weapons, those weapons would be broken out. They haven't been nor has there been any discussion about breaking them out. Given how they just got their clocks cleaned by Sharonan arms, there should be some discussion about when those weapons will be sent forward. No such discussions have been shown.

Every other logistical or cost reason speaks to arcane weapons requiring a significantly greater proportion of Arcana's economic/production output than Sharona's for producing their individual non-muscle powered infantry weapons.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Astelon   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:44 pm

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For such weapons to be in stockpiles they would have to both exist and be accepted into military service. We have no evidence of either being the case. They may have been developed but have been deemed to expensive for military use, or they may not exist at all. Either way Arcana will have to change their weapons when they can (crossbows out, something new in).
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:47 pm

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Astelon wrote:For such weapons to be in stockpiles they would have to both exist and be accepted into military service. We have no evidence of either being the case. They may have been developed but have been deemed to expensive for military use, or they may not exist at all. Either way Arcana will have to change their weapons when they can (crossbows out, something new in).


Agreed. The difference being, change into something that can be produced relatively quickly or establishing an R&D project to produce the potential weapons.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:49 pm

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Updated list of Arcanian weapons with gifted weapons operators versus non-gifted operator/recharge, based on a few other posts.


Sarkos (sp?) crystal/pistol equivalent -- Minimally Gifted Operators & Gifted Recharge

Battle Staff/Rifle equivalent -- Unknown* & Gifted Recharge

Cavalry Dragon/Cut down heavy weapon -- Unknown & Gifted Recharge

Infantry Dragon/Crew Served Heavy weapon -- Non-gifted operator and Gifted Recharge.

Field Dragon -- Unknown & Gifted Recharge

Demo Spell -- Gifted Combat Engineer Operators & Gifted Recharge

Shielding Glamour -- Highly Gifted Operator & special, very limited availability, spell.

Individual Casualty floater -- Unknown & Gifted Recharge

Heavy Horse floater -- Gifted Combat Engineer Operators & Gifted Recharge

Hummer operators -- Operators need a some mage gift to load message crystals or transfer message crystal contents between Hummers. Recharge N/A

Dragon Transport Pod Floaters -- Unknown & Gifted Recharge

Transport Dragon -- Non-gifted Rider. Recharge N/A

Battle Dragon -- Special Gifted** Operator and Living Weapon Recharge

Transport-Battle Dragon crosses -- Unknown, but suspect as for battle dragon, and Living Weapon recharge

Battle Gryphon -- Gifted mage with control spells operating on implanted mage control crystal. Recharge N/A

Recon Gryphon -- Gifted mage with control operating on implanted mage control crystal and recon crystal spells. Recharge N/A

Heavy Horse -- Unknown for rider, suspect as transport dragon. Recharge N/A

Unicorn -- Unknown, suspect as for transport dragon. Recharge N/A

NB: Mages gifts are both the heart of Arcanian military combat power, and it's severe limit. This is not true for Sharona's Psi-gifts.


====

*Unknown means we did not see text supporting non-gifted use.

**Requires a special mage ability that runs in families.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by phillies   » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:49 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I'd guess that it might be for logistics reasons. Remember what we've seen are primarily frontier scouts who sometimes deal with bandits.

Most of their weapons work is going to be training, or hunting for food. Even fights with bandits (who shouldn't be carrying powerful spell weaponry) are rare. If all those soldiers carried spell based weapons that's a lot of charged crystals to bring forward, and/or a lot of time / energy from Gifted individuals to recharge them; just to keep up with the base-line non-combat weapons use.

It should cut way down on the crystal / charging logistics if those are restricted to support weapons (which are used far less often) and support spells (levitation, scouting, etc)

Because unlike the crystals the crossbow bolts can be retrieved and reused by totally unGifted individuals, and in an emergency serviceable replacements can be fashioned from local materials.


We've never seen the weapons used during Arcana's last home-system war. It's possible that their main armies (at least back then) did focus far more heavily on spell-driven weapons. Trading off the heavier logistics load to gain the amount of firepower they could deliver at the point of engagement.


I don't buy it. If the armaments for war are arcane powered weapons, then there would be a stockpile of powered weapons somewhere close to where the accumulators are kept. So when confronted with an unknown enemy with weapons much more powerful than standard acrana issued infantry weapons, those weapons would be broken out. They haven't been nor has there been any discussion about breaking them out. Given how they just got their clocks cleaned by Sharonan arms, there should be some discussion about when those weapons will be sent forward. No such discussions have been shown.

Every other logistical or cost reason speaks to arcane weapons requiring a significantly greater proportion of Arcana's economic/production output than Sharona's for producing their individual non-muscle powered infantry weapons.


Well, no. There may have been a stockpile for some decades after they fought their last war, but unless their government has been captured by their military-political complex, most stuff heavier than what is needed against bandits has for the last century+ been recycled, scrapped, etc.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Astelon   » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:27 pm

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phillies wrote:Well, no. There may have been a stockpile for some decades after they fought their last war, but unless their government has been captured by their military-political complex, most stuff heavier than what is needed against bandits has for the last century+ been recycled, scrapped, etc.


I am not convinced that Arcana has weapons we have yet seen. There would be no real incentive by their political leaders to neuter military effectiveness (unless those same leaders feared the military), and plenty of reason to make certain it remained a capable, if comparatively small, force.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:09 am

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Astelon wrote:
phillies wrote:Well, no. There may have been a stockpile for some decades after they fought their last war, but unless their government has been captured by their military-political complex, most stuff heavier than what is needed against bandits has for the last century+ been recycled, scrapped, etc.


I am not convinced that Arcana has weapons we have yet seen. There would be no real incentive by their political leaders to neuter military effectiveness (unless those same leaders feared the military), and plenty of reason to make certain it remained a capable, if comparatively small, force.


I concur. Also, if such weapons existed, people beyond the law will find a way to access them. That means the military would face those weapons upon occasion. Keeping those weapons available would be the wise course of action for the inherently conservative military mindset. It appears that Andra's power base is the military, so keeping an effective military to offset Ransar and Mythal's arcane advantage would be in order.

All things point to a lack of ubiquitous powered infantry weapons for the Arcanan military.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by brnicholas   » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:27 am

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Mil-Tech Bard

Your list of weapons and operators reveals that you are leaning toward the presumption that if the text does not tell us that the non-gifted can use something then they can't. That is backwards. Unless the text explicitly says that a gift is required for something everyone can do it. This is clear from two aspects of the story.

First, this is clear from the details the authors have chosen to give us. Again and again they tell us that a Gift is required to use something. They never directly tell us that something can be used without a gift. We only know for sure something can be used without a gift when we see a known non-gifted using it and the only known non-gifted in the series are identified as Garthan who left Mythal. This is either a very very weird choice of details to provide or a clear sign that everything else can be used by a non-Gifted.

Second, the omnipresence of Arcane technology within Arcana's society makes it inconceivable to me that everyone can't use it. The most revealing quote is from Chapter 38 of Hell's Gate:

The Sharonian civilization isn't built around the laws of magic at all."

Skirvon was sitting bolt upright in his chair now, staring at him. So was mul Gurthak, but there was something besides simple astonishment in the two thousand's eyes.

"But—" the senior diplomat sputtered. "But how in the gods' names does anyone build a civilization without it?"

He glanced around mul Gurthak's office, an austere frontier room which nevertheless boasted more than a dozen magic-powered appliances, from his own PC to the lighting to the insect-repelling spell to the quietly turning blades of the ceiling fan, all in plain view, and doubtless many others in storage in the various cabinets.

"I'm sorry, Sir Jasak, but Uthik is right. It sounds . . . impossible. They'd live under appallingly crude conditions. People in a place like that would be little better than barbarians!"


We don't see Arcanans doing much besides fighting and giving and receiving reports but what we do see repeats this pattern. The boat's ramp hovers, as do the stretchers, field rites involve magic, when Jasek fights vos Hoven he restrains him with a crystal not a rope, standard combat helmets contain several spells, scouts carry recon crystals. We even see a couple of things, the stretchers and the binding spell which are turned on by the push of a button. In sum, either everyone is gifted, which directly contradicts the text, or everything where it doesn't tell us gifts are required can be used by non-gifted.

You are of course correct about Arcana's absolute dependence on the Gifted to provide power for their whole society including their army. I am not, however, convinced that they need a disproportionatly large percentage of gifted at the front to deploy their full combat power.

As regards the Sharona's lack of dependence on their talents, in the very short term maybe but I would not presume that just because we could do something at their tech level without talents they can. How common flickers are is unclear but at times they are all the way down to the squad level. For example when the Arcanan parley rode up after the battle of Fort Salby it was the "Flicker assigned to his squad" that the observers called to send the message. But Arthag's platoon didn't have a Flicker assigned to it in Hell's Gate and their weren't very many Flickers among the 400 men under chan Tesh's command when Arcana attacked so while they are common how common is unclear. Regardless given how frequently we have seen them used in combat I seriously doubt that the Sharonans could coordinate even a small battle without them. And I think it is certain that they couldn't supply an army over any distance without voices. They just don't have the experience with other forms of communication.

In sum, both sides are radically dependent on their special abilities for now. The Arcanans perhaps a bit more then the Sharonans but I doubt that is significant. There relative combat power is what will be decisive not dependence on gifts/talents.

Nicholas
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by brnicholas   » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:40 am

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Regarding the continued use of crossbows by Arcana I think the reason is quite simple. They remain effective military weapons. That is so because Arcana does not have anything man portable that has a longer range then a crossbow. The only thing we know of that certainly has a longer range then a crossbow is a black or red battle dragon.

We can judge the range of infantry and artillery dragons from 100 Thalmayr's defenses at the Swamp portal. He put them inside crossbow range of the portal as is shown by the fact that his men could shoot at Arthag even though he was still on the other side of the portal. Given that infantry and artillery dragons are direct fire weapons and can't shoot through portals the logical distance for them from the portal is their maximum range which gives them the most time to do damage to charging troops, or cavalry, before they close. It is possible terrain or Thalmayr's stupidity led to a suboptimal deployment but there is no evidence for that.

As long as their is nothing better, and we have no evidence for a man portable Arcanan weapon with more range and hitting power, they will continue to be used.

Nicholas
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:52 am

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Nicholas,

Your are right that arcane technology would be made useable by the non-Gifted. We saw Gadrial set up her PC for Shaylar's use after all. We also know that there are limits to how the Gifted can accommodate their spells for the non-Gifted. Daggerstones come to mind.

The question as applied to the conflict is how many of the non-Gifted can truly leverage magic to both create and use weapons or weapons systems more effective than swords and crossbows? Using the observed forces as a baseline, it appears that magic cannot be leveraged nearly as effectively as Sharonan technology. That is not to say magic cannot be leveraged at all by the non-Gifted, only that technology will free more Sharonans from reliance on muscle power to produce and use weapons of war than magic will free Arcanans. That conclusion is unavoidable. The degree that this is true was why I began this thread.
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