winter conditions

Tenshinai wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi all,

This is a question for those more knowledgable than us non-military types...

We know from textev that the entire ICA is trained to march in winter conditions, but that a smaller part was actually trained to fight in those conditions.

What's the difference? What would be the consequence for untrained portion of BGV's army if they got caught and had to fight in winter conditions anyway?

Don

Marching in winter means being able to operate outdoors at all during winter, and knowing how to move along winter roads and paths, or making them if needed, having the ability to make camps, being able to handle bad weather on at least a basic level, all without causing massive attrition losses.

Being able to fight in winter conditions is very different. Tactical mobility in heavy snow is radically different, you have to know how to notice what tracks and trails are real or false, what were used 2 hours ago and what was made 2 weeks ago, you have to have the ability to move through the terrain even if there´s a few meters of snow in the way, preferably without leaving easy to follow tracks...

You have to be able to fight without tiring yourself out too much, or let yourself get too sweaty, because if that happens chances are that the cold will kill you rather than the enemy.
You have to know how your weapons and gear handles the weather, what extra maintenance you have to do to keep it functional(often a lot).
You need to handle getting access to water when you actually need it.
Being able to handle bad weather on a small unit scale or even individually(which is radically different from handling it as part of a regiment or something similarly big), at any time. And fighting during a snowstorm is seriously nasty, as the battle at Narva shows off very well.

It sounds like another way to put the distinction is between things you learned once, some time ago, say in basic training, and haven't had to practice or perfect since, versus skills you DO use and keep fresh, particularly with an eye toward needing at any time.

The troops trained once to march and maybe fight in winter conditions can later be counted on to be able to march there; the ones trained well and kept trained to march and fight in winter conditions, by contrast, can be counted on to be able to march and fight effectively under those conditions.

Barely any country in the world now or before trained their troops for winter combat on a regular basis. Mountain troops, some jaegers and rangers did/do, but sometimes not even those.

Keith_w wrote:A thought I just had about winter fighting - reloading a muzzle loader while wearing mittens or even heavy gloves is going to slow you down no matter how well trained you are.

JeffEngel wrote:

Keith_w wrote:A thought I just had about winter fighting - reloading a muzzle loader while wearing mittens or even heavy gloves is going to slow you down no matter how well trained you are.

For that matter, reloading at the breech or pulling small triggers inside trigger-guards will be tricky. I think these guys are working with relatively thin gloves under thicker gloves or mittens, with the heavier outside one removed for fine work and put back on after. (Granted, that involves another complication, and discipline to keep putting the heavy ones back on when you don't need to do fine work, to avoid frostbite.)

It's another point where being able to fight in winter involves a skill and/or habit unnecessary to simply marching and surviving there.

Keith_w wrote:[quote="Tenshinai
Barely any country in the world now or before trained their troops for winter combat on a regular basis. Mountain troops, some jaegers and rangers did/do, but sometimes not even those.

JeffEngel wrote:

Keith_w wrote:A thought I just had about winter fighting - reloading a muzzle loader while wearing mittens or even heavy gloves is going to slow you down no matter how well trained you are.

For that matter, reloading at the breech or pulling small triggers inside trigger-guards will be tricky. I think these guys are working with relatively thin gloves under thicker gloves or mittens, with the heavier outside one removed for fine work and put back on after. (Granted, that involves another complication, and discipline to keep putting the heavy ones back on when you don't need to do fine work, to avoid frostbite.)

It's another point where being able to fight in winter involves a skill and/or habit unnecessary to simply marching and surviving there.

Louis R wrote:I don't recall seeing this described in the text, but our solution to the problem is a] mits with trigger fingers and b] taking off the trigger guards [!]

Keith_w wrote:[quote="Tenshinai
Barely any country in the world now or before trained their troops for winter combat on a regular basis. Mountain troops, some jaegers and rangers did/do, but sometimes not even those.