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winter conditions

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Re: winter conditions
Post by n7axw   » Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:23 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:
n7axw wrote:Hi all,

This is a question for those more knowledgable than us non-military types...

We know from textev that the entire ICA is trained to march in winter conditions, but that a smaller part was actually trained to fight in those conditions.

What's the difference? What would be the consequence for untrained portion of BGV's army if they got caught and had to fight in winter conditions anyway?

Don


Marching in winter means being able to operate outdoors at all during winter, and knowing how to move along winter roads and paths, or making them if needed, having the ability to make camps, being able to handle bad weather on at least a basic level, all without causing massive attrition losses.

Being able to fight in winter conditions is very different. Tactical mobility in heavy snow is radically different, you have to know how to notice what tracks and trails are real or false, what were used 2 hours ago and what was made 2 weeks ago, you have to have the ability to move through the terrain even if there´s a few meters of snow in the way, preferably without leaving easy to follow tracks...

You have to be able to fight without tiring yourself out too much, or let yourself get too sweaty, because if that happens chances are that the cold will kill you rather than the enemy.
You have to know how your weapons and gear handles the weather, what extra maintenance you have to do to keep it functional(often a lot).
You need to handle getting access to water when you actually need it.
Being able to handle bad weather on a small unit scale or even individually(which is radically different from handling it as part of a regiment or something similarly big), at any time. And fighting during a snowstorm is seriously nasty, as the battle at Narva shows off very well.



It sounds like another way to put the distinction is between things you learned once, some time ago, say in basic training, and haven't had to practice or perfect since, versus skills you DO use and keep fresh, particularly with an eye toward needing at any time.

The troops trained once to march and maybe fight in winter conditions can later be counted on to be able to march there; the ones trained well and kept trained to march and fight in winter conditions, by contrast, can be counted on to be able to march and fight effectively under those conditions.


Barely any country in the world now or before trained their troops for winter combat on a regular basis. Mountain troops, some jaegers and rangers did/do, but sometimes not even those.


I really appreciated the specificity of this post. In fact all of the posts have been helpful.

I can see the difference between winter fighting and marching now and understand better why BGV's vanguard would need to be trained for winter fighting, given the story we have.

I would add though that it appears to me that the troops trained to march in winter conditions would also be able to fight in those conditions. However the menu of tactical options available to these units would be a lot more severely limited than it would be for those trained in winter warfare.

Would that be an accurate portrayal of the difference?

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: winter conditions
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:56 am

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A thought I just had about winter fighting - reloading a muzzle loader while wearing mittens or even heavy gloves is going to slow you down no matter how well trained you are.
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Re: winter conditions
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:32 am

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Keith_w wrote:A thought I just had about winter fighting - reloading a muzzle loader while wearing mittens or even heavy gloves is going to slow you down no matter how well trained you are.

For that matter, reloading at the breech or pulling small triggers inside trigger-guards will be tricky. I think these guys are working with relatively thin gloves under thicker gloves or mittens, with the heavier outside one removed for fine work and put back on after. (Granted, that involves another complication, and discipline to keep putting the heavy ones back on when you don't need to do fine work, to avoid frostbite.)

It's another point where being able to fight in winter involves a skill and/or habit unnecessary to simply marching and surviving there.
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Re: winter conditions
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:34 am

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JeffEngel wrote:
Keith_w wrote:A thought I just had about winter fighting - reloading a muzzle loader while wearing mittens or even heavy gloves is going to slow you down no matter how well trained you are.

For that matter, reloading at the breech or pulling small triggers inside trigger-guards will be tricky. I think these guys are working with relatively thin gloves under thicker gloves or mittens, with the heavier outside one removed for fine work and put back on after. (Granted, that involves another complication, and discipline to keep putting the heavy ones back on when you don't need to do fine work, to avoid frostbite.)

It's another point where being able to fight in winter involves a skill and/or habit unnecessary to simply marching and surviving there.


It probably would take discipline to keep the heavy gloves or mittens off long enough to do what is needed. I know when my hands get cold, I have a hard time thnking about anything else!

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: winter conditions
Post by Louis R   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:58 am

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On the NATO side, it was Norway and Canada who were tasked with providing the winter warfare capacity on the northern front [Canada also provided the cork in the Fulda Gap ;) ], and I think that a brigade from the US 10th Mountain Division was our backup, but I never had any need to see a real breakdown on AMF so I'm not sure on that one. They held annual joint exercises up around North Cape someplace. In February.

I can't answer to the state of Russian [Soviet, in those days] training and equipment, but it was my impression that we were sufficiently better than they were that there was a reasonable prospect of taking Murmansk away from them.

Tenshinai's summary is pretty complete. I'd just like underline that the difference in training level is between getting from A to B with fingers and toes intact, and mastering the tactical environment and winning a 3-sided fight.


Keith_w wrote:[quote="Tenshinai
Barely any country in the world now or before trained their troops for winter combat on a regular basis. Mountain troops, some jaegers and rangers did/do, but sometimes not even those.


Canada did, which I know because I participated - it was not a lot of fun, and I wouldn't be surprised if Russia did.[/quote]
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Re: winter conditions
Post by Louis R   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:09 am

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I don't recall seeing this described in the text, but our solution to the problem is a] mits with trigger fingers and b] taking off the trigger guards [!]

Serving heavy weapons is a vigorous-enough activity that just keeping your hands warm isn't an issue. OTOH, you do have to use gloves that will protect you from contact with shells that have chilled to -40. I found out the hard way what those funny thin cotton gloves with all the plastic dots are good for. [it was a jerry can of white gas, but the effect is the same]

JeffEngel wrote:
Keith_w wrote:A thought I just had about winter fighting - reloading a muzzle loader while wearing mittens or even heavy gloves is going to slow you down no matter how well trained you are.

For that matter, reloading at the breech or pulling small triggers inside trigger-guards will be tricky. I think these guys are working with relatively thin gloves under thicker gloves or mittens, with the heavier outside one removed for fine work and put back on after. (Granted, that involves another complication, and discipline to keep putting the heavy ones back on when you don't need to do fine work, to avoid frostbite.)

It's another point where being able to fight in winter involves a skill and/or habit unnecessary to simply marching and surviving there.
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Re: winter conditions
Post by EdThomas   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:28 pm

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Thought/question for those who've done it and Tenshinai ( our resident Finn).
In open country would infantry be able to function? I'm thinking the battle would be largely between armor, helicopter gunships and ground support aircraft like the A10. Would mechanized infantry work?

In the great northern forest belts would anything but infantry be able to operate? Small tracks could probably work but would big tanks and mech artillery be limited to roads and roadside clearings?
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Re: winter conditions
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:51 pm

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Louis R wrote:I don't recall seeing this described in the text, but our solution to the problem is a] mits with trigger fingers and b] taking off the trigger guards [!]


I've used mitts with trigger fingers - trigger fingers still get pretty darn cold. The FN C1 and C2 both had trigger guards that could be folded into the handle and that worked a lot better with gauntlet type winter gloves towards keeping your hands from getting frostbite.
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Re: winter conditions
Post by saber964   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:22 pm

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Keith_w wrote:[quote="Tenshinai
Barely any country in the world now or before trained their troops for winter combat on a regular basis. Mountain troops, some jaegers and rangers did/do, but sometimes not even those.


Canada did, which I know because I participated - it was not a lot of fun, and I wouldn't be surprised if Russia did.[/quote]


It depends on the nation involved or where a particular unit is stationed. IIRC Norway maintains two arctic/mountain brigades one active and one reserve. The U.S. Army also has several units that train in winter or arctic conditions. Namely the 10th MtD Ft Drum NY, 6th ID Ft Wainwright AK, 2nd ID Camp Howz S Korea and 4th ID Ft Carson CO.
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Re: winter conditions
Post by tootall   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:50 pm

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Ironic-

We've waited all thru winter for these bits- now
a lot of us are sweltering... :shock:
..."discussing" ;) cold.
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