Relative size of combatants

I just checked, and I don't think the cut-down infantry-dragons need a Gift to use.

HHNF, Chapter 29 wrote:The heavy horses’ larger size meant each of them could carry not one rider, but two, and two of Urlan’s hundred-and-twenty-strong companies were configured as standard heavy dragoons. Each horse bore a two-man saddle, with the rear rider armed not with a saber or lance but with a cut-down version of an infantry-dragon. It was much shorter ranged than the infantry weapon, but longer ranged than any arbalest and far more deadly.
Each horse in Commander of One Hundred Orkal Kiliron’s Charlie Company, on the other hand, carried only a standard saddle, instead of the two-man heavy dragoon version. In place of the normal second rider, a smaller version of the standard dragon cargo pod had been harnessed to each horse. Its comparatively diminutive size was small enough for an augmented horse to handle without too much trouble, but still big enough to carry a full twelve-man infantry squad. A quarter of those pods were occupied by Gifted engineering specialists; the others contained over a thousand picked infantry. And one basis for their selection was that at least half of them had at least some Gift.
Enough, at any rate, for them to be armed with daggerstones for the assault.

This quote specifically says that half the men in certain companies carry the cut-down infantry-dragons, and then goes on to say that there are others - specially picked - with enough Gift to use daggerstones. That very strongly implies that Gift isn't needed for the cut-down infantry-dragons.

brnicholas wrote:

Mil-tech bard wrote:Actually what you said in bold below --

...snipped...

In sum, gifts are needed for certain special weapons where the sarkolis can't be touched and to charge anything magical everything else can apparently be done by a non-gifted.

Nicholas



Is 180 degrees out.

Go see the "cut down infantry dragons" used by the Heavy Horse to assault Ft Salby.

Those needed gifted individuals.

Infantry Dragons are crew served support weapons on the order of Sharonan crew served machine guns.

That the Arcanian Military made infantry crew served support weapons usable by the non-gifted shows good foresight and an appreciation of the loss rate of infantry dragon crews in combat.

I suspect "Cut down" regards Heavy Horse carbine-dragons was the weight of physical interface spellwear as well as projector size resulting in cut-down range.

And BTW, Battle Staff =/= Infantry Dragon.

The former was the individual magic weapon equivalent Jasak was comparing to a Sharonan rifle.

As yet, Battle Staves have not had any "on-screen time".

I tried to check what you said here and I can't find the facts you cite in the text. I can't find anywhere where the books say that the "cut down infantry dragons" needed gifted individuals. Can you please provide me with a quote and chapter number?

As for the Battle Staff the only quote I can find is:

He took great care with the long, tubular weapons every man—and woman—had carried. There seemed to be several different types or varieties of them, and he rapidly discovered that they were intricate mechanical marvels, far more complex than any war staff his own people had built. Of course, war staffs—including the infantry and field-dragons which had been developed from them—were actually quite simple, mechanically speaking. They merely provided a place to store battle spells, and a sarkolis-crystal guide tube, down which the destructive spells were channeled on their way to the target.

That says nothing at all about who could use them.

Without some support from the text to show those weapons require gifted individuals in order to be used I am unconvinced.

Nicholas

bkwormlisa wrote:I just checked, and I don't think the cut-down infantry-dragons need a Gift to use.
snip
This quote specifically says that half the men in certain companies carry the cut-down infantry-dragons, and then goes on to say that there are others - specially picked - with enough Gift to use daggerstones. That very strongly implies that Gift isn't needed for the cut-down infantry-dragons.

Which begs the question, why aren't there more dragons? What limiting factor is there for arcane weapons for the non-gifted? Scarcity alone suggests some limiting factor. What can a crossbow do that arcane weapons cannot if having the Gift is not the limiting factor?

Why not a personal electrical dragon the size of a rifle? That would be deadlier than a crossbow or arbalest. Yet, there is nothing like that.

Which keeps the question alive; why doesn't an advanced civilization that can create dragons usable by the non-Gifted arm all their soldiers with powered weapons? I suspect part of the limiting factor is concentration of energy released in both time and space. Gifted operators are required to focus large energy releases in small enough spaces or short amounts of time. That's part of it but cannot be all of the reasons.

One thought is that because of the Gift, arcane production cannot rise above the guild/master/journeyman/apprentice level of production. Crafting weapons requires one craftsman with enough skill to cast the complex spells in the proper sequence. Creating the spells may be something that can be done in segements, much like software is produced in RL. Once the spell has been created, actually using the spell to create the weapon or effect requires someone that is Gifted enough to master the entire spell.

If my speculation is accurate that means Arcana can never truly industrialize their arcane production. They can industrialize their production of mundane goods, but not their arcane goods and services.

About those Arcanan magic "demolition charges"
(which seem to work more like Catapult Rocks or
Artillery Shells, in that they are projected from a
weapon onto an obstacle some distance away),

I've got a little list of Arcanan magic "items"
which might have been weakened by the move into
Traisum, so as to attack Fort Salby.
Now that Book Three is completed and turned in,
the Fanfiction Constraint is also weakened.
Here is my list:
1 Battle Dragons - all spells relating to them.
... Levitation, Airspeed, size & range of Weaponry.
2 Attack Gryphons - Controls preventing them from doing
what they feel like, instead of being limited by Orders.
3 Camoflage Spell - Weakened.
(That might be why Janaki Glimpsed that the Distance
Viewer could see through it. Result *Not* Guaranteed
for worlds closer to Arcana!)
4 Augmented Horses - Augmentation lessened.
5 Levitation (of cargo pods pulled by Horses)
... Levitation Weakened.
6 Wallcrackers - Weakened. (I guess that this one is
the reason that the user had to get so close to Fort
Salby's wall, that the reflection from it killed him.)
7 Infantry & Field Dragons - weakened.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:
One more item to consider. In the attack on Fort Salby, the demolition charge used by the Arcanans applied a lot of force but not a lot of acceleration relative to chemical explosives. Text described the lack of noise attendant with the breeching of the Fort's wall. The lack of noise describes a lot of force but not accelerating fast enough to generate a loud sound wave. That suggests that the devices/spells powered with "accumulators" might face serious limits on how much energy they channel in a given amount of time.

This further suggests that replicating firearms might not be possible for Arcanans. They may simply be unable to release enough force in a sufficiently small amount of time to produce high velocity projectiles.

One possible limiting factor: Money!
Such weapons might be costly to produce.
The All-Arcanan Federation might not appropriate funds.
Especially since so many of the soldiers, and officers,
are Andarans. Do Ransurans really want to give them so
many dangerous toys?
So the second limiting factor is Politics.

Anyway, why should many be needed,
so far out on the Frontier?
Who would the soldiers need to shoot at,
who could not be controlled by arbalests?
In fully 200 years of exploration, no other world
that has Humans had been found!

HTM

PeterZ wrote:
Which begs the question, why aren't there more dragons? What limiting factor is there for arcane weapons for the non-gifted? Scarcity alone suggests some limiting factor. What can a crossbow do that arcane weapons cannot if having the Gift is not the limiting factor?

Why not a personal electrical dragon the size of a rifle? That would be deadlier than a crossbow or arbalest. Yet, there is nothing like that.

Which keeps the question alive; why doesn't an advanced civilization that can create dragons usable by the non-Gifted arm all their soldiers with powered weapons? I suspect part of the limiting factor is concentration of energy released in both time and space. Gifted operators are required to focus large energy releases in small enough spaces or short amounts of time. That's part of it but cannot be all of the reasons.

One thought is that because of the Gift, arcane production cannot rise above the guild/master/journeyman/apprentice level of production. Crafting weapons requires one craftsman with enough skill to cast the complex spells in the proper sequence. Creating the spells may be something that can be done in segements, much like software is produced in RL. Once the spell has been created, actually using the spell to create the weapon or effect requires someone that is Gifted enough to master the entire spell.

If my speculation is accurate that means Arcana can never truly industrialize their arcane production. They can industrialize their production of mundane goods, but not their arcane goods and services.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:One possible limiting factor: Money!
Such weapons might be costly to produce.
The All-Arcanan Federation might not appropriate funds.
Especially since so many of the soldiers, and officers,
are Andarans. Do Ransurans really want to give them so
many dangerous toys?
So the second limiting factor is Politics.

Anyway, why should many be needed,
so far out on the Frontier?
Who would the soldiers need to shoot at,
who could not be controlled by arbalests?
In fully 200 years of exploration, no other world
that has Humans had been found!

HTM

Howard,

The Arcanan military is based on the Wars between Arcanan nations. The fight for survival that those wars generated would promote an optimal weapons mix for war. I doubt the army would revert back to less effective combat weapons without good reason.

As to expense, that's what I was suggesting. The principal expense is usually labor cost. If the cost of equipping all infantry soldiers with (non-muscle) powered weapons is prohibitive for Arcana and yet not prohibitive for Sharona, what about the arcane production system makes this true? The most likely is industrialization or the limits to what can be industrialized in Arcana.

Peter,

I was thinking about our own Congress, and how much
money it appropriated for the Army at various times.
When the War of 1812 was over, Congress paid for a
permanent army of two Major-Generals, four Brigadiers,
and about ten (IfIRC) infantry regiments.
The National Debt was about $129 million.

Only six years later, in 1821, a Congress with mostly
different people decided that one M-G, two B-Gs, and
six regiments would suffice, and anyway those were all
that they were willing to pay for. By then the Debt was
down to about $100 million, and tariff revenues were
high. But Congress was trying to pay off the Debt,
entirely, and was willing to scrimp on the army.

The weapons mix in Arcana's Final War (so far) IfIRC
emphasized Superweapon Spells. Their use and
improvement ended abruptly with a Peace Treaty.
ISTR that that was what textev tells (Gadrial telling
Shaylar?) with no discussions about infantry.
Me, I can imagine the PBI left with obsolete weapons,
while first the Magisters and then the Diplomats
decided things. Your millage might vary.

BeThatAsItMay, I can well imagine a Legislature,
or a Finance Minister, refusing to pay for weapons that
their country could well afford.
Two hundred years of peace, remember?

Besides, the warriors come from Andara and Mycayl-
Multhera, but the largest share of taxpayers are
Ransaran, remember? I ask again:
would they pay for the best toys for soldiers?
Let 'em have crossbows! It reminds them that they are
mere hired guns, preferring "three squares and a sack"
to Real Work.
And that was the attitude of United States taxpayers,
and the Congresses that represented them, from 1821
until 1945, even 1950. Really.
If you can't believe it, then ask any Libertarian or
Conservative gun-bunny on this Forum.
Or read "This Kind Of War" by T R Fehrenbach,
about the Korean War, and the weaknesses of the USArmy
before it.

HTM

PS: BTWay, the US National Debt was Paid In Full in
January 1835.

PeterZ wrote:

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:One possible limiting factor: Money!
Such weapons might be costly to produce.
The All-Arcanan Federation might not appropriate funds.
Especially since so many of the soldiers, and officers,
are Andarans. Do Ransurans really want to give them so
many dangerous toys?
So the second limiting factor is Politics.

Anyway, why should many be needed,
so far out on the Frontier?
Who would the soldiers need to shoot at,
who could not be controlled by arbalests?
In fully 200 years of exploration, no other world
that has Humans had been found!

HTM

Howard,

The Arcanan military is based on the Wars between Arcanan nations. The fight for survival that those wars generated would promote an optimal weapons mix for war. I doubt the army would revert back to less effective combat weapons without good reason.

As to expense, that's what I was suggesting. The principal expense is usually labor cost. If the cost of equipping all infantry soldiers with (non-muscle) powered weapons is prohibitive for Arcana and yet not prohibitive for Sharona, what about the arcane production system makes this true? The most likely is industrialization or the limits to what can be industrialized in Arcana.

I doubt that the time frames are apt comparisons, Howard. Ransarans are libertarians, sure. They are also more like the touchy feely sorts of libertarians of today rather than the rugged individualist libertarians of yesteryear. Recall Mul-Guthik's description of them in his summary to the Mythal Overlord's of Evil. Ransarans want their comforts and are rich enough to buy those comforts. Their libertarian ideals are more those stemming from a rich and pampered society rather than one focused on individual achievement.

Such emotive people would not send their explorers into the unknown without the best equipment available. As rich as they are, ransarans would find a way to pay for those additional safeguards to avoid being heartless enough to send under-equipped explorers into the muti-verse.

If I am wrong and Ransarans are Libertarians in the rugged individual sense, then that's even more reason to arm the explorers well. After all, Libertarians would recognize that anyone out in the great unknown would be armed to the teeth. Bandits would very likely have the best civilian arms available. A libertarian Ransar means that rich nation would have enough powered weapons for sale that potential bandits would have seriously high powered arms. That's more reason for the explorers to have arcane powered weapons if they exist at reasonable prices.

If they are so prohibitively expensive that private persons cannot generally afford them even in wealthy Ransar, then why are they so prohibitively espensive compared to Sharonan firearms?

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Peter,

I was thinking about our own Congress, and how much
money it appropriated for the Army at various times.
When the War of 1812 was over, Congress paid for a
permanent army of two Major-Generals, four Brigadiers,
and about ten (IfIRC) infantry regiments.
The National Debt was about $129 million.

Only six years later, in 1821, a Congress with mostly
different people decided that one M-G, two B-Gs, and
six regiments would suffice, and anyway those were all
that they were willing to pay for. By then the Debt was
down to about $100 million, and tariff revenues were
high. But Congress was trying to pay off the Debt,
entirely, and was willing to scrimp on the army.

The weapons mix in Arcana's Final War (so far) IfIRC
emphasized Superweapon Spells. Their use and
improvement ended abruptly with a Peace Treaty.
ISTR that that was what textev tells (Gadrial telling
Shaylar?) with no discussions about infantry.
Me, I can imagine the PBI left with obsolete weapons,
while first the Magisters and then the Diplomats
decided things. Your millage might vary.

BeThatAsItMay, I can well imagine a Legislature,
or a Finance Minister, refusing to pay for weapons that
their country could well afford.
Two hundred years of peace, remember?

Besides, the warriors come from Andara and Mycayl-
Multhera, but the largest share of taxpayers are
Ransaran, remember? I ask again:
would they pay for the best toys for soldiers?
Let 'em have crossbows! It reminds them that they are
mere hired guns, preferring "three squares and a sack"
to Real Work.
And that was the attitude of United States taxpayers,
and the Congresses that represented them, from 1821
until 1945, even 1950. Really.
If you can't believe it, then ask any Libertarian or
Conservative gun-bunny on this Forum.
Or read "This Kind Of War" by T R Fehrenbach,
about the Korean War, and the weaknesses of the USArmy
before it.

HTM

PS: BTWay, the US National Debt was Paid In Full in
January 1835.

PeterZ wrote:Which begs the question, why aren't there more dragons? What limiting factor is there for arcane weapons for the non-gifted? Scarcity alone suggests some limiting factor. What can a crossbow do that arcane weapons cannot if having the Gift is not the limiting factor?

Why not a personal electrical dragon the size of a rifle? That would be deadlier than a crossbow or arbalest. Yet, there is nothing like that.

Which keeps the question alive; why doesn't an advanced civilization that can create dragons usable by the non-Gifted arm all their soldiers with powered weapons? I suspect part of the limiting factor is concentration of energy released in both time and space. Gifted operators are required to focus large energy releases in small enough spaces or short amounts of time. That's part of it but cannot be all of the reasons.

One thought is that because of the Gift, arcane production cannot rise above the guild/master/journeyman/apprentice level of production. Crafting weapons requires one craftsman with enough skill to cast the complex spells in the proper sequence. Creating the spells may be something that can be done in segements, much like software is produced in RL. Once the spell has been created, actually using the spell to create the weapon or effect requires someone that is Gifted enough to master the entire spell.

If my speculation is accurate that means Arcana can never truly industrialize their arcane production. They can industrialize their production of mundane goods, but not their arcane goods and services.

I'd guess that it might be for logistics reasons. Remember what we've seen are primarily frontier scouts who sometimes deal with bandits.

Most of their weapons work is going to be training, or hunting for food. Even fights with bandits (who shouldn't be carrying powerful spell weaponry) are rare. If all those soldiers carried spell based weapons that's a lot of charged crystals to bring forward, and/or a lot of time / energy from Gifted individuals to recharge them; just to keep up with the base-line non-combat weapons use.

It should cut way down on the crystal / charging logistics if those are restricted to support weapons (which are used far less often) and support spells (levitation, scouting, etc)

Because unlike the crystals the crossbow bolts can be retrieved and reused by totally unGifted individuals, and in an emergency serviceable replacements can be fashioned from local materials.


We've never seen the weapons used during Arcana's last home-system war. It's possible that their main armies (at least back then) did focus far more heavily on spell-driven weapons. Trading off the heavier logistics load to gain the amount of firepower they could deliver at the point of engagement.

Regards gifted versus non-gifted, this is a list of Arcanian weapons with gifted weapons operators versus non-gifted operator/recharge.


Sarkos (sp?) crystal/pistol equivalent -- Gifted Operators & Gifted Recharge

Battle Staff/Rifle equivalent -- Unknown* & Gifted recharge

Cavalry Dragon/Cut down heavy weapon -- Unknown & Gifted recharge

Infantry Dragon/Crew Served Heavy weapon -- Non-gifted operator and Gifted Recharge.

Field Dragon -- Unknown & Gifted Recharge

Demo Spell -- Gifted Combat Engineer Operators & Gifted Recharge

Individual Casualty floater -- Unknown & Gifted Recharge

Heavy Horse floater -- Gifted Combat Engineer Operators & Gifted Recharge

Hummer operators -- Operators need a some mage gift to load message crystals or transfer message crystal contents between Hummers. Recharge N/A

Dragon Transport Pod Floaters -- Unknown & Gifted Recharge

Transport Dragon -- Non-gifted Rider. Recharge N/A


Battle Dragon -- Special Gifted** Operator and Living Weapon Recharge

Transport-Battle Dragon crosses -- Unknown, but suspect as for battle dragon, and Living Weapon recharge

Battle Gryphon -- Gifted mage with control spells operating on implanted mage control crystal. Recharge N/A


Recon Gryphon -- Gifted mage with control operating on implanted mage control crystal and recon crystal spells. Recharge N/A

Heavy Horse -- Unknown for rider, suspect as transport dragon. Recharge N/A

Unicorn -- Unknown, suspect as for transport dragon. Recharge N/A

NB: Mages gifts are both the heart of Arcanian military combat power, and it's severe limit. This is not true for Sharona's Psi-gifts.


====

*Unknown means we did not see text supporting non-gifted use.

**Requires a special mage ability that runs in families.

Arcana would only continue using crossbows if they remain effective weapons. Effectiveness is determined by performance and cost as compared to alternatives. A rifle sized personal lightning weapon may exist on Arcana, but if you have to reload after every shot, accumulators weigh two pounds (thus limiting ammo), and the expense is much higher than a crossbow (even a magically augmented crossbow) then that crossbow still remains effective in comparison. Maybe not as good, but good enough.

Muskets replaced bows and crossbows not because they were better, but because they were cheaper (in manufacture and training), and because the muskets were good enough. Eventually muskets became rifles, and those are so much better than bows that no military will go back, despite the fact that most bows and crossbows are now cheaper than military rifles.

This only applies in the context of Arcanan weapons context. They have now arrived at a situation partially outside their own context. Sharonian rifles are so far beyond crossbows it will necessitate a change in Arcanan weapons mix. If Arcana can duplicate and mass produce mundane rifles (they work with Arcanan physics, can produce the steel and match the tolerances required) then they will do so. If not then they will have to use somethings else; something that currently exists, or a develop a new weapon. Either way that takes time they haven't had yet, and nations go to war with the weapons they have.

As for magic items weakened, magic was used to create the heavy horses through genetic engineering. They are living creatures, and don't require magic to move or survive. The same would be true for anything that doesn't actively use magic, like unicorns, gryphons, hummers, and possibly dragons. (Does a creature that large need magic just to fly?) Anything that actively uses magic will be weakened the closer they get to Sharona; dragon breath weapons, control spells on gryphons and hummers, infantry and field dragons, levitation spells, and PCs.

AS for the demolition spell, no one was surprised that the engineer had to get that close, or was at risk. And my guess is that the cloaking glamour doesn't hide anything inside it from anything else inside it. Five Hundred Urlan seemed to be able to see and command his entire force while they were all inside it. This leads me to believe that once the distance viewer put his viewpoint inside the glamour he could see the cavalry too.