Langhorne survived Kau-yung's attack.

I was just re-reading page 257 of the mass-market edition of By Heresies Distressed and found Trynair (or the narrator) musing that the chamber in which the annual meeting was being held was one which, by ancient tradition, Langhorne himself had met with his colleagues.

Up to that point I was labouring under the impression that Langhorne had died in Kau-yung's attack and the Temple was built seventy to eighty years later, making it impossible for Langhorne to have met there. I'm guessing that this is an example of the way legends grow in the telling, or that this chamber was in the same location as the one where that happened. What other possibilities are there for that thought?

Apropos of nothing, I have a colleague from mainland China, and I asked him about some of the names in the Safehold series. He told me that Kau-yung means "(he) sees the sun."

~Tonto

Tonto Silerheels wrote:I was just re-reading page 257 of the mass-market edition of By Heresies Distressed and found Trynair (or the narrator) musing that the chamber in which the annual meeting was being held was one which, by ancient tradition, Langhorne himself had met with his colleagues.

Up to that point I was labouring under the impression that Langhorne had died in Kau-yung's attack and the Temple was built seventy to eighty years later, making it impossible for Langhorne to have met there. I'm guessing that this is an example of the way legends grow in the telling, or that this chamber was in the same location as the one where that happened. What other possibilities are there for that thought?

um... I'm dubious. If there had been many interactions with Langhorne directly, after the attack, there would be records of it, and therefore we'd know he survived. I think either this is a second temple rebuilt at the site of an earlier temple, or this is a tradition that is based on an anachronism.


I wonder, does RFC enjoy reading this sort of speculation? Does he look for it the way we anxiously wait for new snippets?

We also have several examples already of traditions being just flat out wrong. Why wouldn't this just be another example of that?

The biggest problem with this is that the Holy Writ itself states that Kau-yung destroyed the Holy Langhorne's mortal body.

If he survived, he would have gone on about how he was so favoured by God that even the treachery of a beloved and trusted friend could not stop the work that God had entrusted to him.

(Also regarding the Temple, they probably recreated it almost exactly after its destruction using the original blueprints just to show that its destruction was merely a set back.)

evilauthor wrote:We also have several examples already of traditions being just flat out wrong. Why wouldn't this just be another example of that?

Legends are fun. They can't be treated as fact, but often there is a kernal of truth wrapped up in the embellishment. I suspect that what we are dealing with here is a case of time conflation. Perhaps Langhorne did meet in a room of that site. But as time passes and the tale is rehearsed, the room in the temple becomes that room...

Don

Tonto Silerheels wrote:I was just re-reading page 257 of the mass-market edition of By Heresies Distressed and found Trynair (or the narrator) musing that the chamber in which the annual meeting was being held was one which, by ancient tradition, Langhorne himself had met with his colleagues.

Up to that point I was labouring under the impression that Langhorne had died in Kau-yung's attack and the Temple was built seventy to eighty years later, making it impossible for Langhorne to have met there. I'm guessing that this is an example of the way legends grow in the telling, or that this chamber was in the same location as the one where that happened. What other possibilities are there for that thought?

Apropos of nothing, I have a colleague from mainland China, and I asked him about some of the names in the Safehold series. He told me that Kau-yung means "(he) sees the sun."

~Tonto

RFC stated before that the surviving "Archangels" were not beyond the use of holograms of Langhorne and the others, so as to impress upon the brainwashed and uneducated masses that while their mortal bodies might die, their spirits will live on. Just another layer in the mass deception of the remainder of humanity on Safehold. It could also be that this "tradition" evolved through the same apocryphal sources as other legends evolved on Earth.

thanatos wrote:

Tonto Silerheels wrote:I was just re-reading page 257 of the mass-market edition of By Heresies Distressed and found Trynair (or the narrator) musing that the chamber in which the annual meeting was being held was one which, by ancient tradition, Langhorne himself had met with his colleagues.

Up to that point I was labouring under the impression that Langhorne had died in Kau-yung's attack and the Temple was built seventy to eighty years later, making it impossible for Langhorne to have met there. I'm guessing that this is an example of the way legends grow in the telling, or that this chamber was in the same location as the one where that happened. What other possibilities are there for that thought?

Apropos of nothing, I have a colleague from mainland China, and I asked him about some of the names in the Safehold series. He told me that Kau-yung means "(he) sees the sun."

~Tonto

RFC stated before that the surviving "Archangels" were not beyond the use of holograms of Langhorne and the others, so as to impress upon the brainwashed and uneducated masses that while their mortal bodies might die, their spirits will live on. Just another layer in the mass deception of the remainder of humanity on Safehold. It could also be that this "tradition" evolved through the same apocryphal sources as other legends evolved on Earth.

I think that it is more a case of how much actual history Trynair would have known. With the 'traditions' of Langhorne establishing everything, he might not be thinking along the lines of what had happened with the nuke.

thanatos wrote:

RFC stated before that the surviving "Archangels" were not beyond the use of holograms of Langhorne and the others, so as to impress upon the brainwashed and uneducated masses that while their mortal bodies might die, their spirits will live on.

Thank you for that. I had read it before, but forgotten, so I went looking for it and found it http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Safehold/315/1

I think the most likely reason that Trynair is shown musing about the meeting room and Langhorne is that the author was trying to give a little flavour to the story of the announcement that Holy War was inevitable. I think he neglected to check his notes and accidentally put a character in a location that didn't exist while the character was alive. I'm not certain of that, mind you, but I think that's the most likely explanation.

Let's suppose that I'm wrong and the author included that information intentionally in order to foreshadow some event that he plans on providing at some future time. What might that event be? If Chihiro used a hologram to fool the people of Safehold then that happened after Langhorne's death. I'm going to argue by analogy, because it occurs to me that the hologram event resembles events recorded in the Bible that happened after Jesus' death. (Note that I'm a Christian and I believe that the recorded events actually happened, but that's beside the point when arguing by analogy, and people who believe the Bible records fictional events should be able to follow as well. In fact, they should be able to follow even more closely since they believe both events are fictional, making the analogy even closer.) If I were musing about Jesus' appearance on the road to Emmaus, or if I were teaching my Sunday School students about the event, then there is no way I would do so without also musing that the event happened after Jesus' resurrection. The same is true of the two appearances in the closed room. The same is true of the ascension at the Mount of Olives. In fact, I can't think of a post-resurrection appearance of Jesus where that wouldn't be true. For another example, consider the Shroud of Turin, which I believe to be a fourteenth century hoax. There is no way I can muse about the Shroud of Turin without musing about it being a hoax.

Now, consider Trynair. He is one of the foremost leaders, or the foremost leader, of the Church of God Awaiting. He has attended lectures that cover all of the important events in Church history, and many or most unimportant events. Langhorne's post-death appearance in Zion is an important event, and Trynair is knowledgable about all known facets of that appearance, and he is knowledgable about all of the commentaries regarding it. The fact that he didn't muse about this being a post-death appearance of Langhorne militates against its being one. It's not absolutely conclusive, but it's strongly, strongly suggestive. (The most likely counter-probability is that Trynair did muse about it being a post-death appearance, but the author decided not to include that because it didn't add to the information he wished to convey, or it revealed future plot points he didn't want to promote speculation regarding.)

So, suppose that this isn't a post death appearance, it isn't a hoax, it isn't an easily-disproved comentary. What can explain it? Well, the title of this thread is one explanation. The problem with it, as others have noted, is that Langhorne stopped appearing after the vest-pocket nuke was detonated. The most likely, the almost certain, explanation is that Langhorne died in that blast. That being the case then my original supposition, that the author intentionally included it to foreshadow some event, must be wrong. I think it was an oopsie.

~Tonto

It wasn't an oopsie.

Tonto Silerheels wrote:thanatos wrote:

RFC stated before that the surviving "Archangels" were not beyond the use of holograms of Langhorne and the others, so as to impress upon the brainwashed and uneducated masses that while their mortal bodies might die, their spirits will live on.

Thank you for that. I had read it before, but forgotten, so I went looking for it and found it http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Safehold/315/1

I think the most likely reason that Trynair is shown musing about the meeting room and Langhorne is that the author was trying to give a little flavour to the story of the announcement that Holy War was inevitable. I think he neglected to check his notes and accidentally put a character in a location that didn't exist while the character was alive. I'm not certain of that, mind you, but I think that's the most likely explanation.

Let's suppose that I'm wrong and the author included that information intentionally in order to foreshadow some event that he plans on providing at some future time. What might that event be? If Chihiro used a hologram to fool the people of Safehold then that happened after Langhorne's death. I'm going to argue by analogy, because it occurs to me that the hologram event resembles events recorded in the Bible that happened after Jesus' death. (Note that I'm a Christian and I believe that the recorded events actually happened, but that's beside the point when arguing by analogy, and people who believe the Bible records fictional events should be able to follow as well. In fact, they should be able to follow even more closely since they believe both events are fictional, making the analogy even closer.) If I were musing about Jesus' appearance on the road to Emmaus, or if I were teaching my Sunday School students about the event, then there is no way I would do so without also musing that the event happened after Jesus' resurrection. The same is true of the two appearances in the closed room. The same is true of the ascension at the Mount of Olives. In fact, I can't think of a post-resurrection appearance of Jesus where that wouldn't be true. For another example, consider the Shroud of Turin, which I believe to be a fourteenth century hoax. There is no way I can muse about the Shroud of Turin without musing about it being a hoax.

Now, consider Trynair. He is one of the foremost leaders, or the foremost leader, of the Church of God Awaiting. He has attended lectures that cover all of the important events in Church history, and many or most unimportant events. Langhorne's post-death appearance in Zion is an important event, and Trynair is knowledgable about all known facets of that appearance, and he is knowledgable about all of the commentaries regarding it. The fact that he didn't muse about this being a post-death appearance of Langhorne militates against its being one. It's not absolutely conclusive, but it's strongly, strongly suggestive. (The most likely counter-probability is that Trynair did muse about it being a post-death appearance, but the author decided not to include that because it didn't add to the information he wished to convey, or it revealed future plot points he didn't want to promote speculation regarding.)

So, suppose that this isn't a post death appearance, it isn't a hoax, it isn't an easily-disproved comentary. What can explain it? Well, the title of this thread is one explanation. The problem with it, as others have noted, is that Langhorne stopped appearing after the vest-pocket nuke was detonated. The most likely, the almost certain, explanation is that Langhorne died in that blast. That being the case then my original supposition, that the author intentionally included it to foreshadow some event, must be wrong. I think it was an oopsie.

~Tonto

runsforcelery wrote:

It wasn't an oopsie.

YES! I've never been happier to be wrong.

~Tonto