Solarian League Navy Personal

Dafmeister wrote:
'Won' is a strong word. The only serious war aim the US achieved was survival (most of the disputes the US cited as a cassus belli were actually resolved before the declaration of war), and Britain never really entertained much hope of reconquering the US - the principal British aim was to defeat the US invasion of Canada and keep the Americans contained on their own continent while Britain dealt with more important matters, like the defeat of Napoleon. US commerce raiding was never much of a threat, the Royal Navy was just to large and even the 'super-frigates' of the USN didn't have enough of an individual margin of superiority to offset their numerical inferiority (see RFC's own comments on the subject here http://www.davidweber.net/posts/200-status-of-the-solarian-le.html).

There's a reason the War of 1812 is a big deal in the US and a footnote of history in the UK - for us, it was an annoying sideshow to the main event taking place in Europe.

No kidding. The strongest word to describe what happened there would be fought to a draw. What it amounts to is that we fought well enough to avoid being overrun and won enough battles to keep our pride.

Don

Mil-tech bard wrote:There is another historical model that RFC may use for the SLN Frontier and Battle Fleets.

See:

Kiel mutiny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel_mutiny

The Kiel mutiny was a major revolt by sailors of the German High Seas Fleet on 3 November 1918. The revolt triggered the German revolution which was to sweep aside the monarchy within a few days. It ultimately led to the end of the German Empire and to the establishment of the Weimar Republic.

German sailors begin to mutiny (28 Oct 1918)
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... -to-mutiny

On this day in 1918, sailors in the German High Seas Fleet steadfastly refuse to obey an order from the German Admiralty to go to sea to launch one final attack on the mighty British navy, echoing the frustrated, despondent mood of many on the side of the Central Powers during the last days of World War I.

saber964 wrote:You could also have a repeat of the French Army mutiny of mid 1917 during WWI.

I think you two are on to something here. In both of the above cases it wasn't so much of the troops rebelling, or shooting their officers, or deserting; they simply were not going to be thrown into a fight that would end with them dead (the 'last ride' of the German Fleet and the disaster of the Nivelle Offensives of 1917). They simply refused to do their jobs anymore.

A couple of things worth noting: neither was completely bloodless (some of the Kiel mutineerers lost their lives and a number of the French mutineers were tried and shot) and both were affected by the Russian revolution (and the 'power to the people', if you will) views that were coming from it (indeed, there were some Russian troops in France at this time).

So I can see a crew who, while they'll stay to protect 'their' homes, refusing to sail to what they see is certain death.

And it wouldn't surprise me of some commanders (especially FF) see it the same way...and that the GA uses this as of those 'fracture lines' that Honro has spoken of in the SL.

We shall see, eventually.

The one thing that would be different here than the precedents in our own time line would be how spread out the SLN fleets are. Given the size of the League and the hundreds of lightyears messages have to cross, months can pass for messages to get to their destination. Then they come into the bridge where access is controlled by protocol, it is not hard to visualize your ratings never hearing about Solly defeats at Spindle and Manticore.

In that event you won't have a domino effect contagion with mutinies. In fact as I interpret the end of ART, most SLN naval action will be BCs doing commerce raiding which will mean that suicide charges into the face of allied firepower probably won't be fashionable.

The possible exception to this would be the attack on Beowulf we've been anticipating.

Don

n7axw wrote:The one thing that would be different here than the precedents in our own time line would be how spread out the SLN fleets are. Given the size of the League and the hundreds of lightyears messages have to cross, months can pass for messages to get to their destination. Then they come into the bridge where access is controlled by protocol, it is not hard to visualize your ratings never hearing about Solly defeats at Spindle and Manticore.

In that event you won't have a domino effect contagion with mutinies. In fact as I interpret the end of ART, most SLN naval action will be BCs doing commerce raiding which will mean that suicide charges into the face of allied firepower probably won't be fashionable.

The possible exception to this would be the attack on Beowulf we've been anticipating.

Don

Your wrong there the grapevine/rumor mill is the only thing known to exceed the speed of light. Aboard a ship a message passes through at least two or three hands before it gets to the CO.

Don

Your wrong there the grapevine/rumor mill is the only thing known to exceed the speed of light. Aboard a ship a message passes through at least two or three hands before it gets to the CO.

That's true with a paper message. But if a message is downloaded to a secure message pad while still encrypted (say in a code whose key is known only to the commander and exec), then it's just another captain's-eyes-only message. Of course, if these messages are otherwise rarer than hen's teeth, that may stoke the rumor mill and stimulate the goat locker.

A decrypted message is known to the code technician, and anybody else (s)he tells. And maybe to the messenger carrying the data pad the to Captain, if they can find 30 seconds to open the data pad and read its contents.

saber964 wrote:

n7axw wrote:The one thing that would be different here than the precedents in our own time line would be how spread out the SLN fleets are. Given the size of the League and the hundreds of lightyears messages have to cross, months can pass for messages to get to their destination. Then they come into the bridge where access is controlled by protocol, it is not hard to visualize your ratings never hearing about Solly defeats at Spindle and Manticore.

In that event you won't have a domino effect contagion with mutinies. In fact as I interpret the end of ART, most SLN naval action will be BCs doing commerce raiding which will mean that suicide charges into the face of allied firepower probably won't be fashionable.

The possible exception to this would be the attack on Beowulf we've been anticipating.

Don

Your wrong there the grapevine/rumor mill is the only thing known to exceed the speed of light. Aboard a ship a message passes through at least two or three hands before it gets to the CO.

If someone with access to incoming messages develops diarhea of the mouth and starts talking, then yes the news will spread. But I am presuming that there is a standard procedure for deciding what gets publicized. You don't want people who repeat what they hear around incoming or outgoing communications to start with. Since there only one place for anything that comes in, that should be easy to control.

I know that were I the captain and stuff started getting out, whoever was doing it would be spending no time around communications gear and a lot of time scrubbing the deck with a tooth brush.

Don

even if the SLN was at war, which it isn t, the crew would have access to 3d news and the internet equvialent, its not a police state... yet

so by this time everyone in the SLN knows that its lost a few million people and got no chance against the aliance

I wonder what the U.S. military would have done during World War Two when Japan destroyed the U.S. battleships, over ran its forward deployed commands and showed them how inferior it's forces were in comparison?

Yow wrote:I wonder what the U.S. military would have done during World War Two when Japan destroyed the U.S. battleships, over ran its forward deployed commands and showed them how inferior it's forces were in comparison?

We had already begun laying down Essex class carriers by the squadron (CV/CVL hull numbers went from ~9 to almost 50, between Essex, Independence and Midway classes, four classes of fast and faster battleships, destroyers by the score and cruisers by the dozen, some of which ended being converted to light carriers. Plus the escort carriers based on merchie hulls. And enough new merchies that losing some of them to the CVE program didn't hurt the overall building program. Admittedly, some of these new ships wouldn't be available until late in the war, or ended up being cancelled when the war was seen to be over before they could be built.

On the ground side, the Army and Marines recruited/conscripted, trained, equipped and organized dozens of new divisions, of infantry, armor and artillery. The Army, Navy and Marines created dozens of wings of fighter, bomber and transport aircraft, all ex nihilo.

Our industry, in addition to building ships, turned out rifles, artillery, trucks, aircraft, tanks, ammunition, and food to supply our needs, and provide significant amounts to our Allies. And the heavily classified activities of the Manhattan Engineering District.

That's what we did. In less than four years, we had not only recovered our territories and possessions, but were preparing to invade the Japanese mainland. And the Pacific war was officially the "second" theater of US effort, with the main effort being devoted to the destruction of Germany and the liberation of western Europe

The Solarian League has done none of this. BF's Fleet 2000 program may have built a few new ships, but most of it was aesthetics on existing ships. And many of the new ships went right into the reserve. If they were built at all, that is. FF's "me too" program doesn't seem to have added much in the way of combat power. We haven't seen any indication of Solarian Marines, Gendarmerie or Army increasing their size or improving their capabilities.

I'm not sure the Mandarins (and the tier directly below them) appreciate the situation they have placed themselves and the League in. We know that at least one source of intelligence is (or shortly will be) under the control of a MAlign plant.

Maybe Honor can explain it to them from Earth orbit.

Yow wrote:I wonder what the U.S. military would have done during World War Two when Japan destroyed the U.S. battleships, over ran its forward deployed commands and showed them how inferior it's forces were in comparison?

Built more ships and fixed its torpedoes.

It's not a fair comparison, because Japan could not effectively touch the construction capabilities of the U.S., and the technology and doctrine were on a rough par. Those torpedoes were certainly better on the Japanese side, but making that up on the U.S. one was mostly a matter of tweaks and better quality control, and torpedoes weren't as central to WWII as missiles are to the League-Manticore fracas.

For the comparison to work, the fleet at Pearl Harbor would have had to be the sort that Nelson had at Trafalgar (and still represent the cutting edge of U.S. naval capability), and IJN carrier task forces would have to have been able to put San Francisco, Chicago, and New York under their guns as easily as they did Hawaii. That's what the Solarian League faces. Like the U.S. would be in that comparison, it's still just plain too large for the Japanese to occupy effectively, and it's got vastly more wealth and industry by comparison. But it's got no ability to mobilize that in the form of competitive hardware any time soon.

Given time - five years, ten years - it certainly could narrow the qualitative gap enough for the quantitative superiority to be enough, like the U.S. took to recover the fleet losses and raise the ground and air forces needed. But with Manticore's ability to keep pressing it, and the League's internal pressures to accomplish something about the embarrassing situation - the League does not have that time.