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Solarian League Navy Personal

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Re: Solarian League Navy Personal
Post by Torlek   » Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:08 am

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n7axw wrote:
Hutch wrote:Yeah, I moght have been reaching a bit on that.

Then again, maybe not. OFS and FF Command (back on Sol, remember) might not even bother to care about such things, after all, they are 'merely' neo-barbs, and who cares about where they come from?

Having them grouped together...yeah, that might be a thing or not, I don't know if the SL Marines (who appear to have their act together, if no one else in the League does) would allow a group that enlists from the same planet to stay together. They might, if the group was large enough and perhaps had (language/cultural) differences that made it easier to group them together.

So OK, I'm reaching. 8-) :) But I think the principle that sven hauke started with, that within the SLN there are going to be some internal problems, is justified.

IMHO as always. YMMV.


Yeah, I agree. There are going to be internal problems. In specific cases, what you outlined sounds realistic. What I am not buying into is the notion that these problems are going to be to such an extent as to cause the disintegration of the SLN.

Don


The Problem is that one small incident can cause a landslide. Given the size of the SLN and the general situation there is bound to be at least one crew ready to mutiny/one ships officers ready to commit barratry, sail to Beowulf and handover there ship, turn pirate or try there hand at being a warlord.

As soon as somebody does that, gets away with it (at least for a little while) and this becomes widely know discipline may disintegrate frighteningly fast. Because everybody not ready to lay down there live for the SL is presented with a better option. And I figure the vast majority of members of the SLN are NOT ready to die for it. The were shown to be professional, when they were in mortal danger. But had they known the risk they would face actually face most would have chosen another profession.
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Re: Solarian League Navy Personal
Post by Scuffles   » Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:30 am

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How many times do we think that the SLN is going to be able to get it's people to engage (using the term loosely I guess) GA SD(P)s though?

There has to come a time when it's blatantly obvious to everybody that you're not going to get in range to even shoot back, and all the tradition and honor in the world isn't going to get fleets to commit pointless suicide for long.
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Re: Solarian League Navy Personal
Post by Direwolf18   » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:36 am

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I think Hutch's comment about attacking your own home-world in his scenario is more apt then people are thinking. I will get to that.


That being said, there are only so many suicide charges they can order their personnel on before said personnel start saying, no not going to do it. Unless they can drastically shift the balance of tech, and quickly that is all its going to be, suicide charges that probably won't accomplish anything.

At which point you need to find some way to get them out there ready to charge Manticorian super missles.


Right now they are going forward on plain pig ignorance, but that is starting to change. Some of their more competent commanders like Commodore Thurgood realize a losing hand when they see one and will fold rather then die to give political cover for their corrupt civilian/uniformed superiors. At some point the average Sollie spacer is going to realize if s/he is anywhere near a Manty ship of any kind their toast. Even then the Mandarins are pushing it off saying how the Manties one by trickery and betrayal, and not that their ships are so much superior. Sooner or latter it is going to be common knowledge though, that is when the real problems will kick in.

You could go the peep route and shoot officers and their families, but that has the problem of pretty much guaranteeing a coup attempt by said officers who don't want their families shot.

You could take the religious fervor route, as seen in like the Safehold series, but I can't see that working in Honorverse.

Their only other option is to essentially fall back on nationalism, for the defense of the league. Yes we are outgunned, but if we don't take a stand here, all we love will fall. Except that's the problem they have, primary loyalty is NOT to the league. Even in the core and inner shell where things are by far and away the best, many people's loyalty is to their homeworlds and NOT to the larger federal government. A good comparison would be the American Civil War, loyalty was more towards the individual states, and not the Federal Government.

All that being said, I don't think we have hit a true tipping point of mass mutiny and desertion. Not yet, there needs to be a few more major blunders. I think that tipping point is going to be the Battle of Beowulf, I have a really really bad feeling about what is going to happen, and my guess is something like a large scale violation of the Erdani Edict is going to cause many of the worlds not just in the frontier, but in places like the core to decide the time has come to go their own way. When THOSE worlds start rebelling, that's when it all starts to fall apart.

We don't know the breakdown of where the officers and enlisted are from in the league, the Senior most officers in the SLN seem to be Terrans, although its not always explicitly said. They are definitely Core Worlders though. But how many more are from places like Beowulf, Strathmore, Kenichi, and Galen who have between them 24 Billion Core Worlders, the kinda people who are needed in a modern navy. And these are just the world's we know are going to try and leave, what about all the worlds in the protectorates or the outer or inner shells.

You add all this up, you WILL have desertion, probably on a large scale, as people know that fighting the manties is hopeless, and have little interest in massacring their own civilians just because some asshole (who you never liked in the first place) is ordering you to just to cover his ass and his career.
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Re: Solarian League Navy Personal
Post by Yow   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:19 am

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The suicide charges are over. The fleet battles are done as a current policy. What's to cause this mass desertion or cowardice? I'm not buying into this. Sollies are arrogant but for a real reason. They're still a power house to be reckoned with and they know it.
As I said earlier, Sir, I think we have no choice but to fight. At the same time, as I also said, I don’t think we can afford to send our wall of battle out to fight their wall of battle. And what that leaves us, Sir, is a policy of commerce warfare. A raiding strategy.


Fleet Admiral Kingsford

~ART

That means Battlcruisers on down. That means avoiding fleet engagements. That means a fighting chance for Solarian crews that they might survive to win. Not a bunch of spacers trembling in their Skinsuits. If you doubt this take a moment to realize that this strategy is a major part of how the United States won the War of 1812. A viable strategy that gave an inferior force the leverage to win. I don't think David Weber is going to keep throwing Bings and Crandalls into the drivers seat. I don't believe he's going to really let the League win either of course but the GA is going to remember why the Sollies are the 800 pound gorilla in the corner.

Cthia's father ~ "Son, do not cater to the common belief that a person has to earn respect. That is not true. You should give every person respect right from the start. What a person has to earn is your continued respect!"
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Re: Solarian League Navy Personal
Post by Dafmeister   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:54 am

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Yow wrote:The suicide charges are over. The fleet battles are done as a current policy. What's to cause this mass desertion or cowardice? I'm not buying into this. Sollies are arrogant but for a real reason. They're still a power house to be reckoned with and they know it.
As I said earlier, Sir, I think we have no choice but to fight. At the same time, as I also said, I don’t think we can afford to send our wall of battle out to fight their wall of battle. And what that leaves us, Sir, is a policy of commerce warfare. A raiding strategy.


Fleet Admiral Kingsford

~ART

That means Battlcruisers on down. That means avoiding fleet engagements. That means a fighting chance for Solarian crews that they might survive to win. Not a bunch of spacers trembling in their Skinsuits. If you doubt this take a moment to realize that this strategy is a major part of how the United States won the War of 1812. A viable strategy that gave an inferior force the leverage to win. I don't think David Weber is going to keep throwing Bings and Crandalls into the drivers seat. I don't believe he's going to really let the League win either of course but the GA is going to remember why the Sollies are the 800 pound gorilla in the corner.


'Won' is a strong word. The only serious war aim the US achieved was survival (most of the disputes the US cited as a cassus belli were actually resolved before the declaration of war), and Britain never really entertained much hope of reconquering the US - the principal British aim was to defeat the US invasion of Canada and keep the Americans contained on their own continent while Britain dealt with more important matters, like the defeat of Napoleon. US commerce raiding was never much of a threat, the Royal Navy was just to large and even the 'super-frigates' of the USN didn't have enough of an individual margin of superiority to offset their numerical inferiority (see RFC's own comments on the subject here http://www.davidweber.net/posts/200-status-of-the-solarian-le.html).

There's a reason the War of 1812 is a big deal in the US and a footnote of history in the UK - for us, it was an annoying sideshow to the main event taking place in Europe.
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Re: Solarian League Navy Personal
Post by Hutch   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:00 am

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Yow wrote:The suicide charges are over. The fleet battles are done as a current policy. What's to cause this mass desertion or cowardice? I'm not buying into this. Sollies are arrogant but for a real reason. They're still a power house to be reckoned with and they know it.
As I said earlier, Sir, I think we have no choice but to fight. At the same time, as I also said, I don’t think we can afford to send our wall of battle out to fight their wall of battle. And what that leaves us, Sir, is a policy of commerce warfare. A raiding strategy.


Fleet Admiral Kingsford

~ART

That means Battlcruisers on down. That means avoiding fleet engagements. That means a fighting chance for Solarian crews that they might survive to win. Not a bunch of spacers trembling in their Skinsuits. If you doubt this take a moment to realize that this strategy is a major part of how the United States won the War of 1812. A viable strategy that gave an inferior force the leverage to win. I don't think David Weber is going to keep throwing Bings and Crandalls into the drivers seat. I don't believe he's going to really let the League win either of course but the GA is going to remember why the Sollies are the 800 pound gorilla in the corner.


Dafmeister wrote:'Won' is a strong word. The only serious war aim the US achieved was survival (most of the disputes the US cited as a cassus belli were actually resolved before the declaration of war), and Britain never really entertained much hope of reconquering the US - the principal British aim was to defeat the US invasion of Canada and keep the Americans contained on their own continent while Britain dealt with more important matters, like the defeat of Napoleon. US commerce raiding was never much of a threat, the Royal Navy was just to large and even the 'super-frigates' of the USN didn't have enough of an individual margin of superiority to offset their numerical inferiority (see RFC's own comments on the subject here http://www.davidweber.net/posts/200-status-of-the-solarian-le.html).

There's a reason the War of 1812 is a big deal in the US and a footnote of history in the UK - for us, it was an annoying sideshow to the main event taking place in Europe.


Yeah, as an American I have to admit the best we can claim is a draw...and one that came nowhere near accomplishing whatever goals we might have had (it was always a little fuzzy on what we were fighting about or for in the first place).

Yow, you say above "That means avoiding fleet engagements. That means a fighting chance for Solarian crews that they might survive to win."

I agree the Sollies will want to avoid fleet engagements.

The problem is, will the GA let them? If you're at a major Sollie base with 200 SD's and some dude named Tourville suddneyl comes over the hyper limit with 75 SD(P)'s and enough of an advantage in acceleration to make running impossible....it won't matter what you wanted to avoid--it's in your face and you (the Sollie Admiral) have a decision to make.

Choose wisely.
***********************************************
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: Solarian League Navy Personal
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:28 am

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Yow wrote:The suicide charges are over. The fleet battles are done as a current policy. What's to cause this mass desertion or cowardice? I'm not buying into this. Sollies are arrogant but for a real reason. They're still a power house to be reckoned with and they know it.
As I said earlier, Sir, I think we have no choice but to fight. At the same time, as I also said, I don’t think we can afford to send our wall of battle out to fight their wall of battle. And what that leaves us, Sir, is a policy of commerce warfare. A raiding strategy.


Fleet Admiral Kingsford

~ART

That means Battlcruisers on down. That means avoiding fleet engagements. That means a fighting chance for Solarian crews that they might survive to win. Not a bunch of spacers trembling in their Skinsuits. If you doubt this take a moment to realize that this strategy is a major part of how the United States won the War of 1812. A viable strategy that gave an inferior force the leverage to win. I don't think David Weber is going to keep throwing Bings and Crandalls into the drivers seat. I don't believe he's going to really let the League win either of course but the GA is going to remember why the Sollies are the 800 pound gorilla in the corner.


There is still 1 fleet engagement that we know will happen - Beowulf. The outcome appears to completely revolve around 2 points - Will the Mycroft installation be completed before the attack AND will a Malaign agent (or Mega-Dumb Sollie) attempt an EE violation.

If Mycroft is not completed, a large enough Sollie force has the chance to trash Beowulf's space infrastructure before the RMN force at the terminus rides in like the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse and shreds them with nightmare fury.

Regardless of Mycroft's status, someone could do the EE violation.

So we're almost guaranteed to get another major Sollie fleet pwnd - and a EE violation by said fleet will get everyone questioning their loyalties.

If you think I'm off on the EE violation, remember, David said after the OB attack, that things are about to get much worse for the alliance before they get better...and that hasn't come to pass - yet.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Solarian League Navy Personal
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:00 pm

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There is another historical model that RFC may use for the SLN Frontier and Battle Fleets.

See:

Kiel mutiny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel_mutiny

The Kiel mutiny was a major revolt by sailors of the German High Seas Fleet on 3 November 1918. The revolt triggered the German revolution which was to sweep aside the monarchy within a few days. It ultimately led to the end of the German Empire and to the establishment of the Weimar Republic.



German sailors begin to mutiny (28 Oct 1918)
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... -to-mutiny

On this day in 1918, sailors in the German High Seas Fleet steadfastly refuse to obey an order from the German Admiralty to go to sea to launch one final attack on the mighty British navy, echoing the frustrated, despondent mood of many on the side of the Central Powers during the last days of World War I.
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Re: Solarian League Navy Personal
Post by JeffEngel   » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:16 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:There is another historical model that RFC may use for the SLN Frontier and Battle Fleets.

See:

Kiel mutiny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel_mutiny

The Kiel mutiny was a major revolt by sailors of the German High Seas Fleet on 3 November 1918. The revolt triggered the German revolution which was to sweep aside the monarchy within a few days. It ultimately led to the end of the German Empire and to the establishment of the Weimar Republic.



German sailors begin to mutiny (28 Oct 1918)
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... -to-mutiny

On this day in 1918, sailors in the German High Seas Fleet steadfastly refuse to obey an order from the German Admiralty to go to sea to launch one final attack on the mighty British navy, echoing the frustrated, despondent mood of many on the side of the Central Powers during the last days of World War I.


The Spithead and Nore mutinies are another instance of work-stoppage style mutinies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spithead_ ... e_mutinies

No revolution triggered there, though there was concern about it at the time.

The Kiel mutiny may be more apt in this case, since it was a matter of refusing to go out and die for a better negotiating position or some safe officers' and politicians' idea of national honor. Spithead and Nore were for better working conditions - not a problem by any stretch for the SLN.

The SLN may have another variation though - not so much (or only) "we're not going out there to die!" but a bit of "you know, this nation isn't worth even a risk". It's at the heart of Barregos' and Roszak's "Sepoy Option" that the League is defended by a combination of de facto mercenaries and oppressed practically-foreign less-than-citizens. That's masked by the point of view of flag officers from core worlds, and all those people who really don't have any personal investment in the League don't have anything else large to unite them to serve instead. The Maya Sector will be one such when it finally splits off, as will other similar successor states. (Assuming they're cosmopolitan enough to attract the fleet crews nearby, anyway, or are already the homes to the home systems of those crews.)

It's a style of mutiny we may not see yet, but it's also one that is only waiting for the right circumstances.
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Re: Solarian League Navy Personal
Post by saber964   » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:04 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:There is another historical model that RFC may use for the SLN Frontier and Battle Fleets.

See:

Kiel mutiny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel_mutiny

The Kiel mutiny was a major revolt by sailors of the German High Seas Fleet on 3 November 1918. The revolt triggered the German revolution which was to sweep aside the monarchy within a few days. It ultimately led to the end of the German Empire and to the establishment of the Weimar Republic.



German sailors begin to mutiny (28 Oct 1918)
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... -to-mutiny

On this day in 1918, sailors in the German High Seas Fleet steadfastly refuse to obey an order from the German Admiralty to go to sea to launch one final attack on the mighty British navy, echoing the frustrated, despondent mood of many on the side of the Central Powers during the last days of World War I.



You could also have a repeat of the French Army mutiny of mid 1917 during WWI.
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