HFQ Official Snippet #26 (I think)

n7axw wrote:Hi Lyonheart et al.,

I really don't believe BGV is going to start committing atrocities either. But PeterZ is right to be concerned about his anger. Then there is the fatigue factor along with all the burned out farms and villages they've seen...

Were I to decide what to do with POWs, I would detail dragoons as guards and then start transporting them to the rear with the empty wagons/sleds that brought forward my provisions. Once you have them where the supply access is better, establish a POW camp.

If you can transport them in heated, covered wagons without rations or winter clothing inside, you can do without many guards at least - break out and you're dead. Stay a well-behaved prisoner and you live, even get to sit down and enjoy the ride without having to march.

That does assume that you can get back to more guards before it gets warm, and that you can spare that much wagon, food, and even that reduced amount of guards. I worry that they may have planned on not taking prisoners just to make this winter campaign work - not to kill them outright, just to leave them without weapons or much shelter. But that's not substantially much less of an atrocity if it's sure to kill them anyway.

BGV has a lot of anger. I'm sure his troops do too. And that anger has been well earned. It's just that so many of the people who will be within range of it are poor suckers drafted into the AoG or even TL militias on no personal account more than they lived somewhere where they could be scooped up, and have followed orders just like the ICA troops across the field. Sure, some of them could have been heroes and martyrs who refused to carry them out, or very clever sorts who didn't carry them out and weren't caught. But that's a high bar to meet, and the military discipline the ICA itself has would look down on people treating its orders that way for whatever reason.

It's not a call to treat everyone in an AoG or TL militia uniform with kid gloves. That's too much to ask and it's never going to happen anyway. It's just a reminder that war IS hell and a hope that characters we like can carry it out without being any more like devils than they have to be.

I suspect that Green Valley's first objective is going to be Fairkyn. Having Fairkyn allows him to supply through Ranshair up the Ice Ash River once Hsing-su's Passage melts. That way he can stop transporting all his matériel over land.

I suspect that his second objective is going to be Ohlarhn. That allows him to threaten Wyrshym's rear, and relieves pressure in the Sylmahn gap. I hope that Charis has been working on ways to undo the damage they did during the great canal raid, and I expect to see steam-engine-driven water pumps sitting on canals in New Northland before long.

I suspect that Wyrshym is going to retreat West down the Guarnak-Ice Ash canal, and Green Valley and the Siddarmarkian forces in the Sylmahn gap will join.

I suspect that another front in the war will open up West down the New Northland canal. That will threaten Wyrshym's rear again, and force him to retreat faster. With the canal still broken, that should make him hemorrhage men faster than ever.

I suspect that the next major battle in the North will occur after Wyrshym and half of the Harchongese forces join somewhere near Lake Maysn.

Am I gazing into a crystal ball? Or watching old re-runs of The Rat Patrol?

~Tonto

Interesting question about whether BGV intends to take prisoners or not. There are good arguments in favor of either decision.

This tidbit that I found in "Like a Mighty Army, November: Year of God 896, Chapter VI" might indicate which way he was leaning before he started the campaign.

"Ruhsyl’s the main show, Green Valley thought, and that makes perfectly good sense, given how much better the campaigning conditions are going to be in southern Cliff Peak and the South March. I understand that. But Wyrshym and I will do a little dancing of our own in another month or two, and this time I get to call the tune.

He concentrated on his paperwork far more cheerfully than usual, whistling softly, and if anyone else had been present, they probably would have recognized the melody.

It was called “The Pikes of Kolstyr""

Tonto Silerheels wrote:I suspect that Green Valley's first objective is going to be Fairkyn. Having Fairkyn allows him to supply through Ranshair up the Ice Ash River once Hsing-su's Passage melts. That way he can stop transporting all his matériel over land.

I suspect that his second objective is going to be Ohlarhn. That allows him to threaten Wyrshym's rear, and relieves pressure in the Sylmahn gap. I hope that Charis has been working on ways to undo the damage they did during the great canal raid, and I expect to see steam-engine-driven water pumps sitting on canals in New Northland before long.

I suspect that Wyrshym is going to retreat West down the Guarnak-Ice Ash canal, and Green Valley and the Siddarmarkian forces in the Sylmahn gap will join.

I suspect that another front in the war will open up West down the New Northland canal. That will threaten Wyrshym's rear again, and force him to retreat faster. With the canal still broken, that should make him hemorrhage men faster than ever.

I suspect that the next major battle in the North will occur after Wyrshym and half of the Harchongese forces join somewhere near Lake Maysn.

Am I gazing into a crystal ball? Or watching old re-runs of The Rat Patrol?

~Tonto

I think that the original plan was to entrap Wyrshym and destroy his army. That is sounding a bit doubtful given BGV's current location so you could be using a crystal ball. That portion of his army still in the gap could be caught though.

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi Lyonheart et al.,

I really don't believe BGV is going to start committing atrocities either. But PeterZ is right to be concerned about his anger. Then there is the fatigue factor along with all the burned out farms and villages they've seen...

Were I to decide what to do with POWs, I would detail dragoons as guards and then start transporting them to the rear with the empty wagons/sleds that brought forward my provisions. Once you have them where the supply access is better, establish a POW camp.

Lyonheart, what's your take on the distance BGV still has to travel to finish his flanking movement on Wyrshym? It looks to me like a long way. I wonder if he can get there in time to deal with Wyrshym before he is reinforced.

Don

Didn't BGV mention that he had resources to make it to the concentration camps in this snippet? Those are a good 50%-60% further away than Guarnak. Wyrshym's reinforcements are due in Spring, no?

looksbeforeheleaps wrote:Interesting question about whether BGV intends to take prisoners or not. There are good arguments in favor of either decision.

This tidbit that I found in "Like a Mighty Army, November: Year of God 896, Chapter VI" might indicate which way he was leaning before he started the campaign.

"Ruhsyl’s the main show, Green Valley thought, and that makes perfectly good sense, given how much better the campaigning conditions are going to be in southern Cliff Peak and the South March. I understand that. But Wyrshym and I will do a little dancing of our own in another month or two, and this time I get to call the tune.

He concentrated on his paperwork far more cheerfully than usual, whistling softly, and if anyone else had been present, they probably would have recognized the melody.

It was called “The Pikes of Kolstyr""

Recall that too, did you?

1) I think that BVG said that he could get to the camps-but he couldn't feed them. I take that to mean that he can feed his own people (indefinitely) but not anyone else.

Do we really believe that he's willing to feed AoG soldiers (authors of the atrocities) if he can't feed the victims?
I think no prisoners- he'll kill as many as he can and allow the rest to "escape"-and freeze. And it appears that he's setting up his attack so that none of them can report their destruction.

2) Runs For has again pointed out the horrific crimes committed against civilians by the church and by their military arm the AoG. It seems to me that the AoG is getting the bulk of the blame for the atrocities committed in the name of "God."
For example, we have developed some respect for the Army of Dohlar and it's commander, and yet haven't they committed their share of these crimes? Thrisk, whom we all seem to like- turned his prisoners over to the Inquisition to be murdered. I no longer think he survives.
Given BGV's disgust (RFC' disgust) it seems to me that mercy is going to be in short supply -on both sides- in this book.

tootall wrote:1) I think that BVG said that he could get to the camps-but he couldn't feed them. I take that to mean that he can feed his own people (indefinitely) but not anyone else.

Do we really believe that he's willing to feed AoG soldiers (authors of the atrocities) if he can't feed the victims?
I think no prisoners- he'll kill as many as he can and allow the rest to "escape"-and freeze. And it appears that he's setting up his attack so that none of them can report their destruction.

2) Runs For has again pointed out the horrific crimes committed against civilians by the church and by their military arm the AoG. It seems to me that the AoG is getting the bulk of the blame for the atrocities committed in the name of "God."
For example, we have developed some respect for the Army of Dohlar and it's commander, and yet haven't they committed their share of these crimes? Thrisk, whom we all seem to like- turned his prisoners over to the Inquisition to be murdered. I no longer think he survives.
Given BGV's disgust (RFC' disgust) it seems to me that mercy is going to be in short supply -on both sides- in this book.

I will only say to this that, for what it's worth, I have been reading David Weber for 20 plus years. I have never seen him write that way and I don't believe he's going to start now. There will be justice for the parties guilty of atrocities. But that's different than vengeance or simply blind rage.

The way the story is set up justice will be hard to find, given the widespread nature of the atrocities the Jihad has perpetrated. But the allies willingness to try rather than killing them all and letting God sort them out is the fundamental difference between the two sides. Consider Merlin's struggle with his own sense of guilt.

That being said, given the reality of war, the allies are going to get their hands dirty. There will be Mai Lai (sp) style incidents. We can only hope there will be as few as possible. As for BGV, I've become fond of the guy. As I said in a previous post, I hope that when all's said and done, he is able to look in the mirror and like what he sees.

Don

n7axw wrote:
I will only say to this that, for what it's worth, I have been reading David Weber for 20 plus years. I have never seen him write that way and I don't believe he's going to start now. There will be justice for the parties guilty of atrocities. But that's different than vengeance or simply blind rage.

The way the story is set up justice will be hard to find, given the widespread nature of the atrocities the Jihad has perpetrated. But the allies willingness to try rather than killing them all and letting God sort them out is the fundamental difference between the two sides. Consider Merlin's struggle with his own sense of guilt.

That being said, given the reality of war, the allies are going to get their hands dirty. There will be Mai Lai (sp) style incidents. We can only hope there will be as few as possible. As for BGV, I've become fond of the guy. As I said in a previous post, I hope that when all's said and done, he is able to look in the mirror and like what he sees.

Don

BGV might well be Honor Harrington on Blackbird Station discovering the way her people were treated. She has a gun in her hand pointed at the enemy commander's head before her and Scotty Tremaine too far away to interfere. Honor did not need forgiveness for actions Scotty stopped. BGV might well need forgiveness for the actions his anger drives him to performing.

Of course we might see that angry Lieutenant become BGV's Tremaine. Or was that Hanth's LT? We have seen courage, both moral and physical. We have yet to see a moral slip and redemption.

tootall- Given BGV's disgust (RFC' disgust) it seems to me that mercy is going to be in short supply -on both sides- in this book.
n7axw replied
I will only say to this that, for what it's worth, I have been reading David Weber for 20 plus years. I have never seen him write that way and I don't believe he's going to start now. There will be justice for the parties guilty of atrocities. But that's different than vengeance or simply blind rage.


I don't really disagree, and I see a difference between shooting prisoners who have surrendered- and driving them out of their holes into the wild to survive as they've left their victims to survive.
I don't see atrocities on BGV's part.- However, given the fate of any of his men who might be captured, and the fate of the camp inhabitants, and past massacres, I see little mercy.
One final thought, if he has to care for 4000 prisoners, his offensive operations are over.