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Captured Solly SDs

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Re: Captured Solly SDs
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:19 pm

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Montrose Toast wrote:As a short term fix until dedicated gators can be acquired the SLN SDs are:
1. Available now with only manning needed including enough to move the TQ Guard located in the TQ.
2. Cheap since they are RMN owned.
3. Can act as a scarecrow and transport until better can be acquired. "Better is the enemy of good enough."

All of the other proposals to transport the TQ Guard will take More time, money, and resources than this.
A whole lot of the Manticoran merchant marine was previously occupied in the Solarian League and isn't working there at all right now. Granted, some of it is now working in the Republic of Haven, but that leaves a whole lot of shipping - not all bulk carriers without life support to spare - sitting around in Manticore orbit looking for work. So if you don't need to fight with it, available shipping is a serious non-problem. Really, an opportunity to use any of it is a wonderful thing, not to be squandered. And financial pressure will be driving every idle freighter to resume League shipping, whatever the government may want.
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Re: Captured Solly SDs
Post by Montrose Toast   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:38 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
Montrose Toast wrote:As a short term fix until dedicated gators can be acquired the SLN SDs are:
1. Available now with only manning needed including enough to move the TQ Guard located in the TQ.
2. Cheap since they are RMN owned.
3. Can act as a scarecrow and transport until better can be acquired. "Better is the enemy of good enough."

All of the other proposals to transport the TQ Guard will take More time, money, and resources than this.
A whole lot of the Manticoran merchant marine was previously occupied in the Solarian League and isn't working there at all right now. Granted, some of it is now working in the Republic of Haven, but that leaves a whole lot of shipping - not all bulk carriers without life support to spare - sitting around in Manticore orbit looking for work. So if you don't need to fight with it, available shipping is a serious non-problem. Really, an opportunity to use any of it is a wonderful thing, not to be squandered. And financial pressure will be driving every idle freighter to resume League shipping, whatever the government may want.


Available now?
At what cost to hire?
Located where? En route Mantacore - not there yet.
And at merchant ship speeds...
"Who Dares Wins"
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Re: Captured Solly SDs
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:26 pm

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Montrose Toast wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:A whole lot of the Manticoran merchant marine was previously occupied in the Solarian League and isn't working there at all right now. Granted, some of it is now working in the Republic of Haven, but that leaves a whole lot of shipping - not all bulk carriers without life support to spare - sitting around in Manticore orbit looking for work. So if you don't need to fight with it, available shipping is a serious non-problem. Really, an opportunity to use any of it is a wonderful thing, not to be squandered. And financial pressure will be driving every idle freighter to resume League shipping, whatever the government may want.


Available now?

Lacoon I was ordered around March 1921. If we're talking about transport of the Talbott Guard for garrison duties after 10th Fleet goes through Meyers and to Mesa, those are July through August of 1922. So yes, "now" is even "long since".
At what cost to hire?
Buyer's market, so probably not much. Also, the crews are already small, so the salary basis of the final costs is small, while passage crews for Solarian SD's will still be a lot of personnel - likely naval personnel, who are already and always in short supply.
Located where? En route Mantacore - not there yet.
And at merchant ship speeds...

Well yes, if merchant ship speeds mean taking some 17 months to get back to Manticore with the whole wormhole network, we can mark those merchants are totally unsuitable. Fortunately, faster ones do exist. Very few of them will be as fast as Solarian SD's, granted, though chock full of people neither sort of ship is going to be pushing the envelope. And as far as that goes, personnel operating Solarian SD's with which their are not familiar with mere passage crews are likely to be getting (daring) much less speed than a SLN-crewed, fully-crewed SD would, while the merchant ships don't suffer reduced crews or unfamiliarity - or being pulled together from wherever on the spot to do this.

If you really need that much transport in a tearing rush though, I suspect the RMN or RHN naval transports are not only available enough but better than either merchant ships or Solarian SD prizes for the job.
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Re: Captured Solly SDs
Post by svenhauke   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:38 pm

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i rmember this one scene where 4 havenite BC emerged in front of a Manti SD out of hyperspace

there was a communications officer in comand on the SD and a helmsman

and the computer identified the enemy BC and with a quick command the commander attacked destroyed and evaded the enemys BC

so basicly you need 2 people to fight a SD

of course thats not how you fight well, but you can fight and kill 4 enemy BC with 2 people on a SD

so forget crews

with minimal engeneering you can propably keep a SD going 10 years before its totally useless, especially if you just have it sitting in orbit

so forget spares

if you think a verge systwem is friendly

you got a choice to defend it

put in mantipower

or give it enough power to defend from frontier fleet

8 useless Solly SD will defend any verge system planet from pirates and frontier fleet and are not threat to manticore

its much more difficult to find verge systems that are worth to give 8 sd

but if you want to protect them from frontier fleet which got BC max, SD are it

remember, its solly tech against solly tech and capital missiles are longer ranged, so solly SD allways wins against solly BC
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Re: Captured Solly SDs
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:59 pm

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svenhauke wrote:i rmember this one scene where 4 havenite BC emerged in front of a Manti SD out of hyperspace

there was a communications officer in comand on the SD and a helmsman

and the computer identified the enemy BC and with a quick command the commander attacked destroyed and evaded the enemys BC

so basicly you need 2 people to fight a SD

of course thats not how you fight well, but you can fight and kill 4 enemy BC with 2 people on a SD

so forget crews

By that logic you only need 2 people to fight a SSBN, since it only takes two people to turn the keys to launch the ICBMs.
Of course that's only true if the sub is at the right depth (oops, that takes more people), and for that few seconds. Operating it for more than a few minutes takes more people, and operating it for months on patrol takes basically the normal crew compliment.

Or heck, you could argue that it only takes 1 person to fight a warplane; which is true right up to the point where you need to land, get fuel, have someone direct you towards a target, or want to fly additional missions.

(Also Bellerophon was a DN, not an SD. Though that doesn't doesn't really affect the rest of your post)
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Re: Captured Solly SDs
Post by svenhauke   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:10 pm

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actually thats totally true you can fight a ssbn with 2 people if nothing goes wrong and you only want to launch your missiles

you can fight with a fighter planes with just the pilot, allso refueling and rearming will be a pain in the ass, untill something breaks

its not optimal

but its possible

if you got 1 guy extra in the reacto 1 guy in the torpedo room and maybe 4 guys in cic you can fight much better(ssbn)

but still not optimal

if you got 1 crew chief and a rating you can fight the fighter much better, but still not optimal, you might even be able to repair if something breaks

and so on, you dont need more then 2 to fight a SD

surte need more then 2 if something breaks to repair it

but if you got 60 you can fight a SD real good and acctually repair a lot

far away from optimum but good enough to kill some BC


remember all those people are there to get the max out of the weapon, get the max out of an ssbn, fighterplane or SD

in case of battledamage

they are not needed to get the minimum out of them

and the minimum with 2 people and computercontrol is enough for a SD to kill 4 BC

P.S. if the fighter plane is armed fueled, ready to go why would you need more then the pilot ?

the USA navy got 55 years experience in nuclear reactor design and control, im very sure their reactor control software is capable of controling the reactor better then any human, the reactor watch is more of a tradition normaly, only in case of damage are they needed

and ssbn s arent suposed to fight other naval vessels they are suposed to be invisible, undetected, and id say 3 people are needed minimum long time, cause you need to get some sleep

with 2 people 6 hour watches are too short to get enough sleep 8 hour watches fuck up your time table and 12 hour watches are too long
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Re: Captured Solly SDs
Post by SWM   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:39 pm

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svenhauke wrote:i rmember this one scene where 4 havenite BC emerged in front of a Manti SD out of hyperspace

there was a communications officer in comand on the SD and a helmsman

and the computer identified the enemy BC and with a quick command the commander attacked destroyed and evaded the enemys BC

so basicly you need 2 people to fight a SD

of course thats not how you fight well, but you can fight and kill 4 enemy BC with 2 people on a SD

so forget crews

with minimal engeneering you can propably keep a SD going 10 years before its totally useless, especially if you just have it sitting in orbit

so forget spares

if you think a verge systwem is friendly

you got a choice to defend it

put in mantipower

or give it enough power to defend from frontier fleet

8 useless Solly SD will defend any verge system planet from pirates and frontier fleet and are not threat to manticore

its much more difficult to find verge systems that are worth to give 8 sd

but if you want to protect them from frontier fleet which got BC max, SD are it

remember, its solly tech against solly tech and capital missiles are longer ranged, so solly SD allways wins against solly BC

"it only takes 2 people to fight"?!!!

I assume you are talking about people above and beyond simply operating the ship. But you are neglecting the hundreds of people running the generators which power the weapons, the dozens of people running the sensors which detected, analyzed, and plotted the enemy ships, and the hundreds of people who made sure those weapons and sensors were working this morning. And if the combat had taken more than a few seconds, you would also need the people running ECM, the people running tactics, and all the weapons and sensors (and associated people) that weren't used in that extraordinarily brief encounter. And don't forget that you need at least three or more likely four shifts of these people. And that's assuming that you skimp and try to go without damage control, live weapons crews, backup command center, and combat medical support.

On a Solarian superdreadnought, there is probably 2000 people whose primary duty is combat-related, rather than maintaining and operating the ship itself. I doubt you could cut that number to one-third and still be able to conduct an actual combat; I think it would be more like one-half.

Honor Harrington, in her escape from Cerberus, cut the ship crews to a bare minimum (and maybe a little below!). She had NO combat-related stations manned. I forget the actual number, but I seem to recall that she still needed at least 35% of the nominal crew size just to keep the thing moving and the people alive--without any ability to fire weapons.
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Re: Captured Solly SDs
Post by svenhauke   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:52 pm

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sorry but i can t belive that automatic systems devolved so badly that you actually need people to run ecm systems

or any other computer controled systems

today computers run those systems

operators adjust and optimize them, sometimes, with human input

usually its needs lightspeed reactions, which humans don t have, but computers do, to adjust ecm and so on.

today.

id guess in the future computersystems are better then today, not worst, on the level of 1955

i asume that the operators are needed to decide wgich tactic is needed, not to actualy puah buttons to activate a system in a certain mode,

we don t do it scince the middle 1970´s that way

so yes to keep all the subsystems working perfectly to have backup in casee systems get blown up repair crews in place and so on you need thousands

but not to work a functioning integrated combat platform, which id say any naval vessel in 2000 years in the future is, like today

handwaivium i accept but your logic sucks

because if we can automate today 2000 years in the future they can do better
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Re: Captured Solly SDs
Post by SWM   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:07 pm

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svenhauke wrote:sorry but i can t belive that automatic systems devolved so badly that you actually need people to run ecm systems

or any other computer controled systems

today computers run those systems

operators adjust and optimize them, sometimes, with human input

usually its needs lightspeed reactions, which humans don t have, but computers do, to adjust ecm and so on.

today.

id guess in the future computersystems are better then today, not worst, on the level of 1955

i asume that the operators are needed to decide wgich tactic is needed, not to actualy puah buttons to activate a system in a certain mode,

we don t do it scince the middle 1970´s that way

so yes to keep all the subsystems working perfectly to have backup in casee systems get blown up repair crews in place and so on you need thousands

but not to work a functioning integrated combat platform, which id say any naval vessel in 2000 years in the future is, like today

handwaivium i accept but your logic sucks

because if we can automate today 2000 years in the future they can do better

It's not my logic, its the author's. Handwavium or not--that's what David has said. Combat cannot be run by AI in the Honorverse. AI can assist. He doesn't like the concept of war run by AI--it reeks of war porn to him.
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Re: Captured Solly SDs
Post by svenhauke   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:19 pm

svenhauke
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ok no ai, no problem

but you can have non AI automatic systems, like today ?

so decisions are made by humans but the software can identify spacecraft, mark them aim at them, and then a human needs to say yes to shoot ?

because we don t have AI and our computers can do that, our computers can shoot without AI

so the 6000 personal in solly SD are :

1000 useless superflisoues asslicking sollys

1000 marines

3900 doctors and nurses,cooks ,toilette repairman,life support personnal,smallcraft personal,quadrupal fusiionreactor crew for all fusion reactors,alpha and beta node personal, inertial crew, warsawski sail crew,missile maintaince personal, graser maintainance personal cm maintainance personal, cmlaserclustermaintainance personal,all in 3 shifts

quatermaster pesonal, shipshop personal, inboard intertainment personal secretarys ,assistant to useless superficiousel solly admiral on board and so on

100 people needed to fight

i think it was the battle of monica or another where someone was just following the computers ew or something, and it wasnt real good but ok what the computer did by itself

the reason the sollarian navy wants quadrupal fusion watches in 3 shifts is

in the last 200 years the only reason the solaran league navy lost SD was 90% their fusion powerplants blew up, or 10% their captains forgot to set warsawski sail while flying into grav waves

btw a USA aircraftcarrier got more personal then a SD, 4500 meters by 450 by 450 versus 365, 75 40
Last edited by svenhauke on Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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