Dorsal/Ventral pod launching?

JeffEngel wrote: I was speculating that tractors have a presser function if reversed. It's speculation, it's open to correction if anyone's got textev or counter-speculation - it's just what I would assume barring some strong positive reason not to. I'm not supposing they've got separate pressers or could readily be equipped with them.

Well, in Honor Among Enemies the maintenance crew working on reloading the pods after the fight with Warnecke's cruisers is using cargo handling units that "mounted a paired presser and tractor with a rated lift of one thousand tons." If tractors could just be reversed to act like pressers, I would think there'd be little reason to put an actual dedicated presser on as well. Not conclusive evidence, but suggestive.

JeffEngel wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:
Ummmm, guys...

Look at the image here:

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/P ... -465723504

See those notches/openings at the corners? Those are RCS thrusters. Not too difficult to use them to move the pods exactly where you want them to go after they've been launched.

Pods *do* have tractors, but they are mainly meant for attaching themselves to a ship, and AFAIK, are not equipped with pressors.

I was speculating that tractors have a presser function if reversed. It's speculation, it's open to correction if anyone's got textev or counter-speculation - it's just what I would assume barring some strong positive reason not to. I'm not supposing they've got separate pressers or could readily be equipped with them.

I don't think anyone's forgotten the thrusters on the pods. I just think we've been figuring on them generating insufficient thrust to make a difference for wedge clearance, either avoiding the wedge of the ship on the way out, or avoiding being too close to one another for the missiles to separate safely soon after a launch.

That's exactly the reason for the RCS thrusters - to separate and align the pods on the target axis. As for avoiding the wedge on the way out, once they're clear of the ship, they coast at whatever velocity they are at, while the ship continues accelerating. No need for tractors *or* RCS to get the pods clear of the wedge. I suppose an argument could be made that the RCS could be used to slow down the pods' velocity to allow them to clear the wedge somewhat sooner, but other than that, they are simply used to get the pods into firing position after clearing the wedge.

For my work with BuNine, the only place I've used pressors is on the pinnace.* All tractors used in pod bays, boat bays, or anywhere else I may have put them are simply tractors, with no pressor function. I have placed them to allow tractor effects from several angles, so there's no need for a pressor function - one would simply lower the power on one side and increase on the other to move the object around.

As MuonNeutrino mentioned, there *is* textev of tractor/pressor function built into a device, but it is just for "cargo handling", and probably not meant for moving objects quickly, as one would need pods to do when leaving the ship. Kind of like the difference between driving a cargo load cross-country in a semi, as opposed to moving the same load around the warehouse with a forklift. You wouldn't use the forklift to take the load from Jersey to LA.

*For diverting airflow during infantry jumps, re-entry, and for other reasons.

Relax wrote:Um, what kind of a "(_______)" pirate is going to attack a task force of SD's???

Who said they would? Does the word Bellerophon ring a bell? (can't believe that word was not in dictionary - someone needs to update the systems spellcheck) All ships should have some direct access weapon systems for quick reaction.

SWM wrote:Wedges have open sides not because people wanted to be able to fire weapons from the broadsides. They have open sides because that's the way impellers work. An impeller wedge is two planes inclined together, and that's just the way the physics works...You cannot have the sides closed off with another wedge, or roll the wedge into a cone or anything like that. You can use sidewalls to imperfectly protect the broadsides, but you cannot have a true wedge wall on the sides.

No, It works threw a difference of potential. It can't have closed off ends, that breaks the flow. A cone has the same cross-section as a wedge and can create the same difference of potential. They have square open sides to provide an opening for sensors and weapons-fire (& likely because no-one thought of it). There is no restriction on the sides being closed off unless you want to move sideways. The main drawback is that such a ship would be dead-blind to any direction but fore & aft unless it had Keyhole to look 'round-the-corner.

MAD-4A wrote:

Relax wrote:Um, what kind of a "(_______)" pirate is going to attack a task force of SD's???

Who said they would? Does the word Bellerophon ring a bell? (can't believe that word was not in dictionary - someone needs to update the systems spellcheck) All ships should have some direct access weapon systems for quick reaction.

And have you somehow missed the fact that an Invictus can throw 200+ vipers every 8s against this, as you put it, DD/CL grade assailant? Hrmm, so what DD/CL grade assailant can even dream surviving 200+ vipers? Hrmm, last I checked, DD/CL grade laser heads in Shadow of Saganami, took out SLN BC's, with a side helping of cruiser grade laser heads.

MAD-4A wrote:

SWM wrote:Wedges have open sides not because people wanted to be able to fire weapons from the broadsides. They have open sides because that's the way impellers work. An impeller wedge is two planes inclined together, and that's just the way the physics works...You cannot have the sides closed off with another wedge, or roll the wedge into a cone or anything like that. You can use sidewalls to imperfectly protect the broadsides, but you cannot have a true wedge wall on the sides.

No, It works threw a difference of potential. It can't have closed off ends, that breaks the flow. A cone has the same cross-section as a wedge and can create the same difference of potential. They have square open sides to provide an opening for sensors and weapons-fire (& likely because no-one thought of it). There is no restriction on the sides being closed off unless you want to move sideways. The main drawback is that such a ship would be dead-blind to any direction but fore & aft unless it had Keyhole to look 'round-the-corner.

I can't find it (keywords are too common; or I'm not guessing the correct ones), but I swear this came up before and RFC confirmed that wedges have to be a pair of inclined planes; no cylindrical wedges.

MAD-4A wrote:

SWM wrote:Wedges have open sides not because people wanted to be able to fire weapons from the broadsides. They have open sides because that's the way impellers work. An impeller wedge is two planes inclined together, and that's just the way the physics works...You cannot have the sides closed off with another wedge, or roll the wedge into a cone or anything like that. You can use sidewalls to imperfectly protect the broadsides, but you cannot have a true wedge wall on the sides.

No, It works threw a difference of potential. It can't have closed off ends, that breaks the flow. A cone has the same cross-section as a wedge and can create the same difference of potential. They have square open sides to provide an opening for sensors and weapons-fire (& likely because no-one thought of it). There is no restriction on the sides being closed off unless you want to move sideways. The main drawback is that such a ship would be dead-blind to any direction but fore & aft unless it had Keyhole to look 'round-the-corner.

<Bold mine>
But then you would only be able to deploy Keyhole fore and aft. Side wedges would prevent current KH deployment.

IIRC, David has said at some point (can't be arsed to look it up) that one of the reasons he made the wedges impenetrable to any sort of weapons fire was to approximate the sort of wet-navy, age-of-sail warfare that was prevalent in the Hornblower years. He *wanted* ships fighting with broadsides, and not having parabolic shots that would come in from above (or below, in space), as most modern real world navies can occasionally do.

Since space battles can take place from any orientation, and attacks can come from any angle, David needed a way to limit firing angles, and having a wedge that not only provided propulsion, but also just happened to be a "shield" both ventrally and dorsally allowed him to do what I talked about in my first paragraph.

I doubt very much that cone-shaped wedges will ever show up in the series. Frankly, it would make battles very boring, as the ship(s) with the cone-wedge would be nigh on invulnerable, and smack too much of Star Trek, which is a fine show for what it is, but it ain't the Honorverse. I would much prefer that the former doesn't resemble the latter.

JeffEngel wrote:Another point though - What's the problem with broadside pod launch, like LAC's use? The "launchers" would of course be vastly larger than missile tubes (but smaller than LAC hatches), and presumably the sidewalls could incorporate larger "gunports" for them.

You could launch pods through the sidewall, but you have to have a gunport like you mentioned. Gunports weaken a sidewall as discussed when the Shrikes were first described. Going out the back of the wedge solves the problem of weakening the sidewall further.

Echoes of Honor, Chapter 3 wrote:One reason they were designed with no broadside armament was to avoid weakening their sidewalls with gunports.

Relax wrote:And have you somehow missed the fact that an Invictus can throw 200+ vipers every 8s against this, as you put it, DD/CL grade assailant? Hrmm, so what DD/CL grade assailant can even dream surviving 200+ vipers? Hrmm, last I checked, DD/CL grade laser heads in Shadow of Saganami, took out SLN BC's, with a side helping of cruiser grade laser heads.

So...what? your going to fire 200 missiles as a warning shot to surrender, at a pirate destroyer who you happened upon? Don't let you in-charge of the budget!!!

MaxxQ wrote:But then you would only be able to deploy Keyhole fore and aft. Side wedges would prevent current KH deployment.

And?...It's not a "current" ship. Keyhole allows sensor & FC systems to be deployed away from the ships hull. you equip the new ships with Keyhole in the fore & Aft hammerheads along with the .fixed weapons. This allows the ship to "see around" the wedge.

MaxxQ wrote:That one of the reasons he made the wedges impenetrable...approximate the sort of wet-navy...

I have been verry much aware of this since Basilisk Station, didn't need to look it up (though, with DNs & SDs, I always imagined more WWI) but...

MaxxQ wrote:I doubt very much that cone-shaped wedges will ever show up in the series.

I kinda think that went out the window with the introduction of "Aircraft carriers" & "Subs/U-Boats" (CLACS & Spider-Drive ships) - Not vary Nelsony.

Jonathan_S wrote:I can't find it (keywords are too common; or I'm not guessing the correct ones), but I swear this came up before and RFC confirmed that wedges have to be a pair of inclined planes; no cylindrical wedges.

never saw it - and a truncated cone not cylinder, though I can see why (with conventional layouts) it would not work because you couldn't see or fire to the sides so you wouldn't want one. but with a device that could see-round and missiles that can be dropped out in pods and fired remotely - why would you not. As for "boring battles"...well 2 words, Butter & Cup (here they come - they're nearly to twice there effective range...oops now they're gone...) well boring from the Manty viewpoint, now so-much from the Haven side. as an initial run they could produce CA(P/C)s that double as fleet escorts so they take the position at the "top & bottom" of the fleet. as the fleet moves into enemy range, it rolls ship & the CA(P/C)s take up position covering the end sidewalls making it near impossible to score a hit on anyone. then SD(P/C)s are completed and moved into formations. These might put the need for a "wall" out of fad.