Civilian transports in a high threat enviroment

considering the current state of politics in the honorverse

i would have a very low expectation for a civil transport to survive

sln attacks, alliance attacks, man attacks comming up, pirates

so if i where a transport tycoon with a vision, id want

armed merchants capable of defending against enemys

if i was a solarian transport tycoon, id try to go to the andermani empire

if i was an alliance tycoon

id build a 8 million ton ship

with battle cruiser outer armor 30-40 cm tubes plus close in defense clusters about 12 at least havenite cemiterre Lacs and 500 pods of multidrive missiles, again at least havenite hardware 12 side missile tubes and 6+ front and a secondary set of battleship armor to defend my passengers and vitals

so long i got 4 million ton cargo capacity left i could make money ensuring the safety of my passengers and cargo in the great interstelar war

high value cargo only

sven;

Interesting points. Without a doubt, merchant traffic is likely to get more dicey with Frontier Fleet BC's and other ships raiding GA space, The GA mucking about meaningfully in the Core and Shell, and pirates trying to take advantage of the chaos.

That said, I don't think arming a ship to the extent you mention is in the cards. The Hauptman Cartel did so for certain passenger liners in Silesia (Honor against Enemies) and in the same book Honor used the Q-ship tactic to ensare pirates, but these were both limited actions. And of course Admiral Bachfisch armed his ships in Silesia (War of Honor) for the exact reasons you mention. So it can be done.

Fact is, though, it's not like military forces are used to handing over high-tech weaponry to civilians in large bulk. I can see a few ships converted this way (where is another question, given the results of Oyster Bay, but I guess Haven might be able to do it) and used as convoy escorts, but more likely the RH and SEM will take their Q-ships out of mothballs and employ them (with more modern pods and LAC's) and use them, along with regular warships, to provide escorts.

Business is in the profit mode, and adding weapons and decreasing space is not making money.

We shall see, eventually.

svenhauke wrote:considering the current state of politics in the honorverse

i would have a very low expectation for a civil transport to survive

sln attacks, alliance attacks, man attacks comming up, pirates

so if i where a transport tycoon with a vision, id want

armed merchants capable of defending against enemys

if i was a solarian transport tycoon, id try to go to the andermani empire

if i was an alliance tycoon

id build a 8 million ton ship

with battle cruiser outer armor 30-40 cm tubes plus close in defense clusters about 12 at least havenite cemiterre Lacs and 500 pods of multidrive missiles, again at least havenite hardware 12 side missile tubes and 6+ front and a secondary set of battleship armor to defend my passengers and vitals

so long i got 4 million ton cargo capacity left i could make money ensuring the safety of my passengers and cargo in the great interstelar war

high value cargo only

Good luck defending against GA forces, not that they should be shooting up your personal transport. Ordering it to pull over and possibly impounding it, maybe, but if you don't try to rumor to fight they're not going to to blow you away.

Also I doubt your be able to reliably find 4 mtons deliveries of high value cargo. But if you have to hang around waiting for your holds to fill up then your just losing money

obviouesely it would be no use to be an enemy of the GA

but as a part of it it would be possible to have 3d rate tech sufficent to deter any pirates or sollys

and theres enourmouse amounts in profit, especially if you can guarantee delivery while no one else can

think all solarian controll is going to desintegrate

normal merchantmen won t exist in space outside

secured aereas

ex OFS battlecruisers will be pirates

svenhauke wrote:obviouesely it would be no use to be an enemy of the GA

but as a part of it it would be possible to have 3d rate tech sufficent to deter any pirates or sollys

and theres enourmouse amounts in profit, especially if you can guarantee delivery while no one else can

think all solarian controll is going to desintegrate

normal merchantmen won t exist in space outside

secured aereas

ex OFS battlecruisers will be pirates

--------------

Sven -- Good points, I can see some FF squadrons and maybe deployed BF CA / BC squadrons deciding to go rogue after being sent out as commerce raiders.

Converted Naval Auxillaries -- Like Bachfisch's Pirate's Bane will definitely find a good, legal, profitable niche market.
But like the Hauptman Atlas class liners, their main defense was speed -- like the liners Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary which could (and did) out-run the German torpedoes in WWII. If an Atlas-class trades missile volleys with a warship (or rogue warship) rather than defensive fire it might be considered "fair game".

Prior to the days of radio and radar, and during wartime, ships went in convoys as one of the anti-piracy steps.

-- Stewart

svenhauke wrote:obviouesely it would be no use to be an enemy of the GA

but as a part of it it would be possible to have 3d rate tech sufficent to deter any pirates or sollys

and theres enourmouse amounts in profit, especially if you can guarantee delivery while no one else can

think all solarian controll is going to desintegrate

normal merchantmen won t exist in space outside

secured aereas

ex OFS battlecruisers will be pirates

----------------

In Theory -- there's one of those possible exception areas again --
Civilian vessels of neutral / non-involved nations are supposed to non-targets and can expect aid and emergency assistance from any legitimate nation's naval or military forces -- In Theory.

Flagged vessels combatant nations can be considered part of their merchant marine and in wartime ARE targets for the adversaries. There are multiple reasons (not just tax reasons) that many US / UK owned ships are registered with other nations.
in 1915 and again in 1939/40 the USA was still a neutral in WWI and later WWII. The national attitude changed after German U-Boats started sinking US flagged shipping.

"Legitimate" naval interdiction of shipping is calling on the ship to heave to and stand-by for an inspection of contraband / war materials. Most of that practice went away with the steamship era and the arrival of the submarine.
Same in the Honorverse.
In Honor's battle in Sidemore, the pirate cruisers should have provided aid to Honor's Wayfarer; Revealed as pirates (or at least as giving false information of their movements), they became targets for Wayfarers missile pods.

I can see the Andie Merchant Marine or the Erehwon Merchant Marine developing new trade routes.

-- Stewart

Admiral Bachfisch bought a surplus Aldermani military freighter and either re-armed it or got it with it's older weapons systems still intact. He had licenses for the various places he needed them to operate an armed merchant. He also had his crew to a military level of proficiency with the ship and weapons. He knew he was going to run into piratats or have problems with some of the systems governments (mostly the pirates) and set himself up to be able to take on --when he HAD TO- your garden variety pirate which is typicaly using some older merchant ship to which some weapons have been added. A missle tube or two, a laser or so, and probaby EW and ECM upgrades to the scanning systems.

Pirates don't really want to fight, they want their prey to surrender after a show of force. Any "normal" pirate taking a pass at Bachfisch's "Pirate's Bane" would find out- to their horror, that he was both better armed than they were, had a better trained crew and a much better mindset & attitude. He only took on the PRH DD because he put himself into a situtation where he went looking to check out his suspisions and the DD was going to take the freighter rather than just ignore it since it could have blown the PRH mission. So Bachfisch let them come way in on him and then tried to kill the DD with the surprise strike. He still got badly damaged but the alternative was much worse.

Neither Bachfisch nor an armed liner like the Atlas class would normaly take on an actual warship.

svenhauke wrote:considering the current state of politics in the honorverse

i would have a very low expectation for a civil transport to survive

sln attacks, alliance attacks, man attacks comming up, pirates

so if i where a transport tycoon with a vision, id want

armed merchants capable of defending against enemys

if i was a solarian transport tycoon, id try to go to the andermani empire

if i was an alliance tycoon

id build a 8 million ton ship

with battle cruiser outer armor 30-40 cm tubes plus close in defense clusters about 12 at least havenite cemiterre Lacs and 500 pods of multidrive missiles, again at least havenite hardware 12 side missile tubes and 6+ front and a secondary set of battleship armor to defend my passengers and vitals

so long i got 4 million ton cargo capacity left i could make money ensuring the safety of my passengers and cargo in the great interstelar war

high value cargo only

The problem with this is that it costs too much to arm and armor civilian freighters. The profits from ordinary merchant trade are not enough to offset the costs of armoring your freighter. It would only be worthwhile for high profit-margin shipments. Ordinary bulk freighters simply cannot afford it.

Civilian freighters would simply avoid a war zone, or travel armed escort.

Remember the smart way of operating for corporations in a democracy - privatise profits and nationalise expenses.

Why spend money defending your own ship when your government can do it for you? Travel as part of convoys and 'hitch rides' with warships whenever and wherever you can.

Where you might need escort to particular locations it is always cheaper to bribe [make legal and legitimate contributions to] a politician or official to ensure that your shipping is a matter of 'economic security'. The sovereignty, safety and rights of ships flying the national flag, or carrying crew/passengers [or cargo] of a particular nation must be defended!

Defend commerce shipping from pirates! That's what the navy is for. Just ask Janacek.

BobfromSydney wrote:Remember the smart way of operating for corporations in a democracy - privatise profits and nationalise expenses.

[snip]

Defend commerce shipping from pirates! That's what the navy is for. Just ask Janacek.

Heck, prior to King Roger's buildup in House of Steel the primary purpose of the RMN was commerce protection in the eyes of many.

If the Sollies actually do start attempting to raid GA shipping I can very easy see the official response to be to just run monthly or whatever convoys of ships. Work with the major shipping cartel's to set up a convoy schedule that hits all the important stops with the ability for ships to head off for individual stops and meet back up at the next 'gathering' area.

Have a few Saganami-Cs with a squad of Rolands and they'll be able to chew up any Solly formation below the wall that isn't absolutely massive in size (RMN runs out of missiles before blasting everything apart).