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Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:20 pm

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As practical matter, atrocities and chemical weapon attacks are only deterred by a consistent policy of larger scale retaliation.

Sharona has not discovered Arcanian Chemical weapon WMD use and neither the torture and mass killings of Sharonan prisoners of war.

Sharona is aware of the targeted killing of Voices and that awareness is already shaping the policy decisions of the division-Captain in charge of Sharona's counter offensive. Effectively deciding to take no Arcanian prisoners.

The over running of torture sites/mass graves and the forensic investigation of same by "Sniffer" (?) Talents -- those who see psionic impressions of past events -- will result in further policy changed by the Sharonans in terms of retaliation.

The Sharonan emperor-elect will need to make some very quick and very draconian retaliatory policy decisions to prevent a USMC versus Japanese take no prisoners death spiral between the Arcanian and Sharonan military forces.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Astelon   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:43 pm

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Chan Geraith didn't issue orders to take no prisoners. His attack plans might preclude survivors from the pickets they attack, but he never said to kill anyone the do capture.

Chan Geraith has to know the value prisoners will have. First they have to understand Arcanan techology and weapons, including those that might not have made it to the front yet. Also knowledge of Arcana worlds, culture, population, economy, and industry are extremely valuable. They will get none of the necessary knowledge without prisoners.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:48 pm

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"War is the ultimate moral solvent."

-- George Will.


War has a momentum independent of the will of the actors.

The history of why America entered WWI, and America's about face on the subject of unrestricted submarines warfare after the attack on Pearly Harbor is instructive enough on that point.

George will's quote above very much applies to Chan Geraith oders.

That Chan Geraith obliquely said "kill all the Arcanian pickets" does not mean that the killing will be limited to Arcanian pickets at the time Sharonan soldiers attack them, nor especially after Arcanian atrocities become known.

Chan Geraith will be a very long way away from his forward cavalry troops.

And those troopers will be close to Arcanians, many of whom are guilty of atrocities.

And when the child-voice whose Voice teacher and father both died for him tells his tale, even Chan Geraith will have a hard time even wanting to stop the retribution troopers at the cutting edge will unleash.



Astelon wrote:Chan Geraith didn't issue orders to take no prisoners. His attack plans might preclude survivors from the pickets they attack, but he never said to kill anyone the do capture.

Chan Geraith has to know the value prisoners will have. First they have to understand Arcanan techology and weapons, including those that might not have made it to the front yet. Also knowledge of Arcana worlds, culture, population, economy, and industry are extremely valuable. They will get none of the necessary knowledge without prisoners.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by SCC   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:25 pm

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Do the Sharonian's ever know about these war crimes yet?
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:40 pm

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As of snippet #3, they only knew of the targeted killing of Voices.

They are about 9 weeks away -- book time -- from discovering the torture and mass killing of Sharonan POW by Commander of 1000 Carthos' (sp?) troops.

SCC wrote:Do the Sharonian's ever know about these war crimes yet?
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:19 pm

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I sort of think he did say to treat the warning system of the Arcanans just like the Arcanans treated Sharonan Voices. There were after all civilian Voices along that chain and yet no voices messages came through. Even if there were only military Voices, Voices were non-combatants for the most part. Some of them would have surrendered. If they did surrender, they could have broadcast messages until they connected with someone that had not been captured.

We know that people were listening for anything from Hell's Gate after the initial scheduled call was missed. Yet nothing made it in the 12 days since the offensive began to the Fort Salby attack. Not one Voice message was received.

I suspect that the last comment from chan Geraith indicates that he does assume captured Voices were killed and he does mean to return the favor to any Arcanan he can't find a use for.

The biggest problem is language. The voices tagging along might well be able learn an Arcanan language from a handful of prisoners. After learning the language, the utility of keeping long term prisoners shrinks. Broader policy might reach chan Geraith before he can initiate his own draconian policy.

Astelon wrote:Chan Geraith didn't issue orders to take no prisoners. His attack plans might preclude survivors from the pickets they attack, but he never said to kill anyone the do capture.

Chan Geraith has to know the value prisoners will have. First they have to understand Arcanan techology and weapons, including those that might not have made it to the front yet. Also knowledge of Arcana worlds, culture, population, economy, and industry are extremely valuable. They will get none of the necessary knowledge without prisoners.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by SCC   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:54 pm

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PeterZ wrote:The biggest problem is language. The voices tagging along might well be able learn an Arcanan language from a handful of prisoners. After learning the language, the utility of keeping long term prisoners shrinks. Broader policy might reach chan Geraith before he can initiate his own draconian policy.

There isn't a language problem anymore, it seems to have magically disappeared, probably to make handling things easier, IE not having to write scene where people are having trouble communicating, remember there was no pointing out of translation issues at the parley, and I'm pretty sure the prisoners taken in the assault on the swamp portal passed on Andrean, it a blink and you'll miss it thing
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Astelon   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:28 pm

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The language barrier has only disappeared because the Arcanans have translating spellware in their crystals. This was mentioned multiple times throughout HHNF. The only language the spellware understands is ternathian. My guess is that there will be trouble communicating as the Sharonans advance and capture prisoners, at least until Sharonans learn the language.

As per Chan Geraith's orders the pickets are to be attacked with overwheliming force and killed; likely to keep a message from getting out. There are no orders in the snippet about larger forces (Carthos has to have his main force somewhere), and simple logic dictates that not everyone will die fighting, even if you tried, while attacking a large force. Disabled, unconscious, and wounded are a guarantee under those circumstances. There will probably happen with pickets too, however the forces attacking pickets is unlikely to be able to secure and transport the prisoners.

As for other prisoners being killed, it probably will happen. I hope it happens as part of an official trial and execution, with other Arcanan prisoners witnessing. That is the only thing that will put a stop to a downward spiral of atrocities and reprisals; and even that won't do it immediately, there will have to be serious negotiations first.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by brnicholas   » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:16 am

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I'm less certain then most about what Chan Geraith's orders will actually be. What we saw was a motivational meeting in which he laid out general strategy to his senior staff. Promising revenge is a logical way to conclude that, it isn't setting detailed policy.

Chan Geraith will give both written and verbal orders to the commander of the picket and those will doubtless include instructions regarding both how to go about attacking Arcanan pickets and any Arcanans which survive the attacks. Those orders might be just to kill everyone. The orders might be to have healers shut them down (as was done to 100 Thalmayr) and leave them hidden near the portal with a few men to care for them. He might also order something else entirely.

His tone is certainly dangerous but I hope Chan Geraith is realistic enough to avoid 2000 Harshu's stupidity in letting free lance atrocities start. Chan Geraith has to realize how badly Sharona needs intelligence and that means live prisoners who might eventually be convinced to talk freely. Also if the Sharonans are going to pursue a policy of retaliation they need enough prisoners to make the threat meaningful and they are very short on prisoners right now so there are two good reasons (in addition to the moral ones) not to let Arcanan prisoners be killed by rogue troops.

Nicholas
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by brnicholas   » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:27 am

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I agree that stopping the atrocities is very very desirable but I think you are underestimating what is required to stop them.

The first thing that is required is that both governments have to make it a matter of policy not to commit atrocities. In this war, where there is almost no ability of the other side to monitor how prisoners are treated and both sides can tell truth from falsehood easily (and thus use torture effectively) there is going to be really really strong temptations for governments to have a policy of torture. I'm inclined to agree with those who think a policy of retaliation will be necessary to get an official policy against atrocities (especially torture) firmly in place on both sides.

The second thing that has to happen is that both governments have to keep their own people from committing free lance atrocities. That is a problem both of military discipline and psychology. I don't know enough about the psychology of combat troops to know what steps are needed to prevent free lance atrocities but am doubtful that your proposal would be effective unless the guilty are captured in fairly large numbers. Do you have any evidence on how to prevent atrocities in wartime? Although the proper techniques are likely to be culturally determined so what works for Americans may well not work for Sharonans and/or Arcanans.

Nicholas

Astelon wrote:...snipped...

As for other prisoners being killed, it probably will happen. I hope it happens as part of an official trial and execution, with other Arcanan prisoners witnessing. That is the only thing that will put a stop to a downward spiral of atrocities and reprisals; and even that won't do it immediately, there will have to be serious negotiations first.
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