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Nationality and the Solarian League

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Nationality and the Solarian League
Post by Scuffles   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:32 am

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Hi guys! I figured I'd ask about something other than the endless tech discussions! :D

What I'm wondering is how the people who belong to the Solarian league actually see the league. Specifically, do average people tend to say something like "I'm from the Solarian League" when they're talking to some poor uncultured neobarb, or would they be more inclined to say "I'm from *insert planet here*.

In other words, do people actually identify themselves with the league in any way, or do they identify themselves with their home planet - which might just happen to be a member of the league.

As a bonus question, what happens to SLN ship crews if their planet happens to secede while they're on a tour of duty? It's not out of the question for someone from Beowulf to join the SLN right? Can those people legally crew an SLN ship if their planet is no longer a member of the league? Couldn't that be a huge mess if significant numbers of planets start to quit the league?
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Re: Nationality and the Solarian League
Post by Erls   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:38 am

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Two thoughts..

1- I would think that that Sollies would have two different views, depending upon who they are talking to. For example, if a member of a 2nd tier Solly planet is speaking so some neo-barb spacer, they will probably fall back to "I'm a Solarian Citizen." If, on the other hand, it is a member of a 'Core World' (say, Sol) talking to someone from a Verge world, they will probably play up their home planet as more prestigious than the league.

Basically, look at the USA and Texas (or NYC).. Someone from Wisconsin (my state) will call themself an American, but someone from NYC will say "I'm a New Yorker", as they view (for some reason the rest of the world can't understand, as NYC is a horrible cesspool and filth and corruption) as above America.

2- I think the American Civil War may have a role as to whether a spacer from say Beowolf can continue serving.. If they pledge to the League, they are good to go (but perhaps under suspicion). If not, they will take their first chance to get home and sign up there.
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Re: Nationality and the Solarian League
Post by kzt   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:43 am

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David has said explicitly that the vast majority of the SL citizens don't normally think of themselves as SL citizens. They think of themselves as (for example) Beowulf citizens, not SL citizens.

My personal comparison is the UN. How many people think of the UN when they think of the government? Do most people really care about who runs the UN? If you stopped people on the street, what percentage of them could tell you who is UN Secretary-General? If the UN vanished tomorrow, how would this affect your life or your family's life?
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Re: Nationality and the Solarian League
Post by crewdude48   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:52 am

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KZT said it almost exactly like I would have. Basicly, they know it intellectually, but it has little to no influence on their every day life, so they don't ever actually consider it on an emotional level.

As for the SLN sailors; depends on what their planet does, what the SLN policy will be, and their personal desires. Considering how the plan is going for Beowulf, I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to get word to most of their citizens in the SLN that "you may want to come home on leave soon."

I could see the SLN and the SL in general, arrest citizens of succeeded worlds on treason charges or the like. I could also see some people willing to change their home of record to Terra, and others attempt to defect to Beowulf while their home world is still a League member.

Also, while I suspect that there are many people from the core worlds in the SLN, I feel that the majority of the junior officers and enlisted will be from well outside the core, like Thandi, hitching their wagon to the only horse out of town, regardless of how deseased it is. So basicly, I suspect that the SLN will actually fall apart faster then the League itself will.
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Re: Nationality and the Solarian League
Post by Scuffles   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:08 am

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kzt wrote:David has said explicitly that the vast majority of the SL citizens don't normally think of themselves as SL citizens. They think of themselves as (for example) Beowulf citizens, not SL citizens.

My personal comparison is the UN. How many people think of the UN when they think of the government? Do most people really care about who runs the UN? If you stopped people on the street, what percentage of them could tell you who is UN Secretary-General? If the UN vanished tomorrow, how would this affect your life or your family's life?


Basically exactly how I read it too, I just thought I'd see what other people think! :D
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Re: Nationality and the Solarian League
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:30 am

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Scuffles wrote:
kzt wrote:David has said explicitly that the vast majority of the SL citizens don't normally think of themselves as SL citizens. They think of themselves as (for example) Beowulf citizens, not SL citizens.

My personal comparison is the UN. How many people think of the UN when they think of the government? Do most people really care about who runs the UN? If you stopped people on the street, what percentage of them could tell you who is UN Secretary-General? If the UN vanished tomorrow, how would this affect your life or your family's life?


Basically exactly how I read it too, I just thought I'd see what other people think! :D


Well maybe they might if the UN ran the Navy, raised taxes [some], conducted piracy supression and other stuff that the SL and it's various branches do?

[Edit] particularly as here practically everyone is in the UN. In the Hverse, there is a clear group in the SL and clear groups out of the SL, which always makes scope for self identification. After all, even the most ardent Texan [name your state] will shout for the USA during the Olympics :-) [/Edit]
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Re: Nationality and the Solarian League
Post by JeffEngel   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:45 am

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isaac_newton wrote:Well maybe they might if the UN ran the Navy, raised taxes [some], conducted piracy supression and other stuff that the SL and it's various branches do?

Right, the analogy isn't perfect. None are. But when it comes to patriotism and national identity, who runs a (tiny for the size of the "state") navy and who taxes you (oh so indirectly) only matters a little. And even then, your planet/system/multi-system-polity inside the League will often have a navy too, and will certainly tax you (directly) - and it will have existed longer in many cases, the people in it will breathe the same air you do, speak the same dialect, have the same place in interstellar affairs, elect (or wish to) the same leaders, and so on. So as a competing locus of national identity, the sub-League unit has a lot going for it relative to what really is a treaty organization rather than a proper nation-state.
[Edit] particularly as here practically everyone is in the UN. In the Hverse, there is a clear group in the SL and clear groups out of the SL, which always makes scope for self identification. After all, even the most ardent Texan [name your state] will shout for the USA during the Olympics :-) [/Edit]

Meh, there's maybe 20% of the species outside the League. And they are way out there, and either in the League's shadow or so far out and so poor and backward they can be ignored... OMG! What's happening to Battle Fleet?! What's happening to trade?! WTF?!!!

The current situation is a bit like Ethiopia up and sinking most USN carrier groups and seizing all the major sea lanes globally and all ports and airports in the U.S., Canada, European Union, Russia, India, and China. Whaaaa? Do not blame the League too harshly for being shocked stupid at that - just blame them for thinking of the Grand Alliance as comparable to Ethiopia.

And yes, Texans will cheer for the U.S. in the Olympics. If there were a single North American team, they'd cheer for them too. But if there were a Texan team and a rest-of-U.S. team, that would not be cheering for the latter and they are probably hankering after that situation often. :P
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Re: Nationality and the Solarian League
Post by Hutch   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:54 am

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I'd compare the SL to the European Union rahter than the UN (Brussels is known for regulating stuff between the member states), but kzt's point still holds. You might recognize yourself as a SL citizen and take some pride from that, but your main identity and loyalty is to your home planet.

I think crewdude48 makes an excellent point here, IMHO:

Also, while I suspect that there are many people from the core worlds in the SLN, I feel that the majority of the junior officers and enlisted will be from well outside the core, like Thandi, hitching their wagon to the only horse out of town, regardless of how deseased it is. So basicly, I suspect that the SLN will actually fall apart faster then the League itself will.

Italics mine.

Respect of command, loyalty to the SLN, and trust in your fellow crew-members are critical to the morale and fuctioning of a SLN ship, and if even 5-10% of a crew are either (1) finding out their planets are seceeding or (2) that their world is revolting/has thrown out the transtellars, then the above is going to get...dicey...on a lot of ships. Does the commander throw them in the brig? What if a company of Marines from some Verge world (like Thandi) decide that they no longer owe loyalty to the SLN? or if the ship's XO is from Beowulf or the Chief Engineer from Kenchi or one of the RF worlds, like Visigoth?

I think crewdude is right; the GA may not have to fight the SLN that much longer; it may end up destroying itself.

We shall see, eventually.
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Re: Nationality and the Solarian League
Post by n7axw   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:34 am

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I think that it is established by RFC's comments that most folk self identify by planet.

But the ideal that the League represents remains powerful in the minds of many and the League's role in keeping the peace and promoting trade would mean that its role in people's lives is more important than many realize.

While many in the Verge and the Shell would be cheerfully say good riddance to the League, just how this plays out in the Core when it falls into the crapper remains to be seen.

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Re: Nationality and the Solarian League
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:36 am

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I'd also point out that many do seem to self identify as SL - for example in the most recent books, esp in the trade/wormhole related incidents - the functionary's & traders all seem to see themselves that way when push comes to shove.

Of course all these are space going people out on the frontiers, but still it's there as at least a background position.
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