Official HFQ Snippet #25

Whoa a minute. I think speculation is running away with itself and a whole pile of stuff which is not in evidence is being built on as if it were canon.

There is zilch textev that the whole Temple is made of battlesteel. All we know of is the main dome, which was needed to protect against attack and the transparent floor covering of the main sanctuary, the area of highest wear, which protects the intricate decoration. Everything else is mere speculation.

The Wylsynn Key, is to be used in a little, maybe private, chapel, of which there must be dozens, if not hundreds in the Temple complex. All that outwardly distinguishes this one is that the altar has some unusual depressions on its top. It is tucked away in the basement, but nothing says it is locked away. It is obscure not necessarily locked up. Why would it be?

There is no textev to suggest that any of the winnining archangels would want anyone on Safehold to ever have access to technology that was not disguised as Holy miracles, so there is no reason to believe there is any obvious or easy way into the TF tech parts of the basement. But we don't have to posit insuperable difficulties either.

It's a while since I read the section on Scheuler's message, but I have never been convinced by the argument that the man who sent it somehow has to be seriously at odds with God's Plan for Safehold as expressed in the writ. It's possible but by no means a given. Did he write the book bearing his name? Who knows. So what? It has been canon since OAR that Chihiro took the lead in writing the whole writ and that the various Archangels had varying degrees of input to the books bearing their names. Did he support the Plan and the Archangel's regime that produced the Writ including 'his' book? You bet he did! To the point that, as we now know, he was one of the foremost fighters against the Fallen. I think he is considerably less cuddly than many have convinced themselves he is. For example, Kohdy went to ask him awkward questions and ended up dead. Nothing we have read from RFC precludes the obvious notion that Scheuler was responsible for Kohdy's death. It's certainly a lot simpler solution than most of the conspiracy theories floating around here.

Randomiser wrote:Whoa a minute. I think speculation is running away with itself and a whole pile of stuff which is not in evidence is being built on as if it were canon.

There is zilch textev that the whole Temple is made of battlesteel. All we know of is the main dome, which was needed to protect against attack and the transparent floor covering of the main sanctuary, the area of highest wear, which protects the intricate decoration. Everything else is mere speculation.

The Wylsynn Key, is to be used in a little, maybe private, chapel, of which there must be dozens, if not hundreds in the Temple complex. All that outwardly distinguishes this one is that the altar has some unusual depressions on its top. It is tucked away in the basement, but nothing says it is locked away. It is obscure not necessarily locked up. Why would it be?

There is no textev to suggest that any of the winnining archangels would want anyone on Safehold to ever have access to technology that was not disguised as Holy miracles, so there is no reason to believe there is any obvious or easy way into the TF tech parts of the basement. But we don't have to posit insuperable difficulties either.

It's a while since I read the section on Scheuler's message, but I have never been convinced by the argument that the man who sent it somehow has to be seriously at odds with God's Plan for Safehold as expressed in the writ. It's possible but by no means a given. Did he write the book bearing his name? Who knows. So what? It has been canon since OAR that Chihiro took the lead in writing the whole writ and that the various Archangels had varying degrees of input to the books bearing their names. Did he support the Plan and the Archangel's regime that produced the Writ including 'his' book? You bet he did! To the point that, as we now know, he was one of the foremost fighters against the Fallen. I think he is considerably less cuddly than many have convinced themselves he is. For example, Kohdy went to ask him awkward questions and ended up dead. Nothing we have read from RFC precludes the obvious notion that Scheuler was responsible for Kohdy's death. It's certainly a lot simpler solution than most of the conspiracy theories floating around here.

Hi Randomizer,

Yep. I pretty much agree. Thanks for summarizing the textev so nicely. We are doing lots of speculating...some of which makes sense, some of which doesn't.

I particularly agree with your point about Schueler. At this point there is no reason to absolve him of anything. The best we can say is that there unanswered questions surrounding him.

Of course we can scarcely be expected to avoid filling in the blanks ourselves, now can we...

Don

Randomiser wrote:Whoa a minute. I think speculation is running away with itself and a whole pile of stuff which is not in evidence is being built on as if it were canon.

There is zilch textev that the whole Temple is made of battlesteel. All we know of is the main dome, which was needed to protect against attack and the transparent floor covering of the main sanctuary, the area of highest wear, which protects the intricate decoration. Everything else is mere speculation.

We also know that Merlin looked at the Temple - by remote no less - and decided it was better protected than your average planetary defense bunker. And that he would need a city destroying nuke to take out the Temple and anything below it.

Given the observed level of paranoia that went into making the Temple's exterior, why WOULDN'T its designer include internal battlesteel compartmentalization to limit damage in the event of a surprise attack by the Fallen?

evilauthor wrote:

Randomiser wrote:Whoa a minute. I think speculation is running away with itself and a whole pile of stuff which is not in evidence is being built on as if it were canon.

There is zilch textev that the whole Temple is made of battlesteel. All we know of is the main dome, which was needed to protect against attack and the transparent floor covering of the main sanctuary, the area of highest wear, which protects the intricate decoration. Everything else is mere speculation.

We also know that Merlin looked at the Temple - by remote no less - and decided it was better protected than your average planetary defense bunker. And that he would need a city destroying nuke to take out the Temple and anything below it.

Given the observed level of paranoia that went into making the Temple's exterior, why WOULDN'T its designer include internal battlesteel compartmentalization to limit damage in the event of a surprise attack by the Fallen?

Your assertion makes sense, but Randomizer's point still stands. It is still speculation and will remain so unless confirmed by textev or word of the author. It is always wise to keep out speculation sorted away from what is actually established as fact.

Don

Randomiser wrote:Whoa a minute. I think speculation is running away with itself and a whole pile of stuff which is not in evidence is being built on as if it were canon.

There is zilch textev that the whole Temple is made of battlesteel. All we know of is the main dome, which was needed to protect against attack and the transparent floor covering of the main sanctuary, the area of highest wear, which protects the intricate decoration. Everything else is mere speculation.
SNIP

I think you're being a bit of a spoil-sport here Randomiser. Folks have been having so much fun, both those writing and reading, these "speculations". And here you want to insist on actual evidence. Tsk, tsk.

n7axw wrote:Your assertion makes sense, but Randomizer's point still stands. It is still speculation and will remain so unless confirmed by textev or word of the author. It is always wise to keep out speculation sorted away from what is actually established as fact.
Don

Randomizer's point contains both both a reminder of the limits of textev and also speculation. His speculation is no more legitimate or not than the other speculation here.

Personally, I don't believe the simplest explanations will prove out to be what we get, as RFC likes to throw a few wrenches into the works.

Randomiser wrote:Whoa a minute. I think speculation is running away with itself and a whole pile of stuff which is not in evidence is being built on as if it were canon.

In 1807, a young aspiring journalist wrote to then-President Thomas Jefferson for advice on the newspaper business. Jefferson had experienced a very nasty press in his career and was cynical on the subject; nonetheless he gave the best advice he could:

Thomas Jefferson wrote:Perhaps an editor might begin a reformation [of his newspaper] in some such way as this. Divide his paper into 4 chapters, heading the 1st, Truths. 2d, Probabilities. 3d, Possibilities. 4th, Lies.
The first chapter would be very short, as it would contain little more than authentic papers, and information from such sources, as the editor would be willing to risk his own reputation for their truth.
The 2d would contain what, from a mature consideration of all circumstances, his judgment should conclude to be probably true. This, however, should rather contain too little than too much.
The 3d & 4th should be professedly for those readers who would rather have lies for their money than the blank paper they would occupy.

Now let's apply these categories to the speculations:

There is zilch textev that the whole Temple is made of battlesteel. All we know of is the main dome, which was needed to protect against attack and the transparent floor covering of the main sanctuary, the area of highest wear, which protects the intricate decoration. Everything else is mere speculation.

You have named the truths. I would say that, except for the interface the Wylsyns are intended to use the Key with, any TF tech tools will be sealed to the Archangels' use only by TF security and protected behind TF materials. That is a probability, supported indirectly by numerous textev and word of RFC, but without textev. Building everything with battle steel reinforcement, in contrast, is a mere possibility.

It's a while since I read the section on Scheuler's message, but I have never been convinced by the argument that the man who sent it somehow has to be seriously at odds with God's Plan for Safehold as expressed in the writ.

It is a textev truth that Schueler-of-the-Book and Schueler-of-the-Key have different personalities and took different actions. It is a strong probability that Chihiro was the cause of those differences. It is also a probability, though a weaker one, that Schueler-of-the-Key was making possible actions that did not fit perfectly with Chihiro's promulgation of the Writ. But it's no more than a possibility that these differences extended even as far as opposition to Chihiro in any way, much less doubts / abandonment / modification of the Langhorne Plan. For all we know Schueler-of-the-Key is merely building safeguards for the Plan that Chihiro would not have approved.

IMHO I think the reason so many hope that the Schueler-of-the-Book and Schueler-of-the-Key are two different people is because we love Paityr Wylsynn so much and see how he is being torn apart even more with the knowledge coming from Kohdy’s diary. We hate to lose him, this might be too much for him if the man he always looked up to and who he wanted to make proud turned out to be a demon who loved to hurt and kill people. I figure the two Shuelers are one in the same until Mr. weber tells us other wise. I know that at work I am one type of person, and at home a totally different one. It is how I get work done. Just as Prices Iris had to come to the realization her father was not perfect and that not everyone got to see the side of his that she did. but what would be more ironic than to have a descendant be the one to bring you down with the tools you left behind to keep the power trip going.

Actually, there is nothing at all wrong with speculation, nor did Randomizer suggest there was. In fact I do it and enjoy it myself. Where the thing goes astray is when we forget that our speculations aren't established fact. That being said, let's speculate away, argue about what's most probable and generally enjoy ourselves.

Don

mhicks wrote:IMHO I think the reason so many hope that the Schueler-of-the-Book and Schueler-of-the-Key are two different people is because we love Paityr Wylsynn so much and see how he is being torn apart even more with the knowledge coming from Kohdy’s diary. We hate to lose him, this might be too much for him if the man he always looked up to and who he wanted to make proud turned out to be a demon who loved to hurt and kill people. I figure the two Shuelers are one in the same until Mr. weber tells us other wise. I know that at work I am one type of person, and at home a totally different one. It is how I get work done. Just as Prices Iris had to come to the realization her father was not perfect and that not everyone got to see the side of his that she did. but what would be more ironic than to have a descendant be the one to bring you down with the tools you left behind to keep the power trip going.

Well - there could be nothing more than a reputation shared between Key-Schueler and Book-Schueler, with Book-Schueler being really Chihiro (for instance) slapping Schueler's name on the book because Real-Schueler had a reputation he could use/smear. I figure that's substantially the "Book/Key Schueler Non-Identity Thesis".

Another possibility - I favor this one - is that Book-Schueler may be a fair representation of Schueler's public career, even if it's not any more Schueler's actual words than the other Writ books are the actual words of their nominal writers (Chihiro excepted), while Key-Schueler represents a later and/or private side of Schueler. Key-Schueler was the man who loved his family and looked back at what he'd done and the substance of the Church he'd help erect and was at least worried about it. That's a lot like your different faces at work and at home, though it's also (I imagine) a whole lot more extreme. (I'm assuming that you're not big on instructing folks how to torture unbelievers to death at work, see, and you'd have to be that for the analogy to work full-force!)

Prince Hector certainly was a better, kinder father than he was a ruler, and a far better, kinder ruler to his people than he was a factor in the lives of other nations' people. But even then, there's not that kind of radical disconnection - there's a gradation of sensibility that drops off as it gets further out. As a prince engaged in the Great Game, alas, Prince Hector's sensibility could drop down to plain ol' villain out there in the world before his power ran out of steam.

It's not so much that we'd rather not see Paityr Wylsynn devastated, for what it would mean to him personally or his role in the world, but rather that the man who would care about his family and set them the charge to guard against Church corruption does not seem like the sort who'd spell out in loving, gruesome detail death by torture for dissident belief. It's hard to buy that any single person, at the very least at the same point in their lives, would be sincerely behind both attitudes. It's not like Prince Hector, either, because Key-Schueler's care went all the way out there into the world, as far as he could charge his family to work it through the policing of the Church and the keeping of its conscience, while Book-Schueler's joy in torture went just as far through the Order and the Book that bear his name. "They" seem to be working at cross-purposes, or at least with radically different attitudes in the same places.