End of the "Wall-of-Battle"

The staple of Honorverse space conflict for centuries has been the Wall of Battle and the various ship type that can work in it most effectively. However the introduction of MDM's and later long range/FTL control systems has meant combat ranges have just grown and grown. In the time of "On Basilisk Station" combat was maxed out at around 5-10 million kilometers (allowing for various modifiers), now in "Shadow of Freedom" MDM/FTL comms allow a standard 40-60 million km (with 100+ million km being just about feasible). This is markedly (and knowing Weber 'deliberately') similar to how big guns took over from cannonades, and later guided missile destroyers took over from big gun battleships.

In an era with this sort of missile combat, not to mention the potential from LAC's and drones (and the MA spider drive), are we now seeing the seeds for the end of the wall of battle as an effective tactic? I can see how the formation style still provides effective defensive coverage, but with some likely future mods to counter fire options and the LAC screen, that too many soon be removed as a truly effective method.

In the modern age it is very rare for fleets of seaborne ships to engage each other and most naval task groups are for escorting various types of carriers, mine layers, or screening against submarines. While a total erasure of the wall-of-battle is unlikely to happen in the time frame of the remaining story, we could see some Infodumps or tactical discussions based around how the old era's methods may soon die out.

What do people think?

Valen123456 wrote:In an era with this sort of missile combat, not to mention the potential from LAC's and drones (and the MA spider drive), are we now seeing the seeds for the end of the wall of battle as an effective tactic? I can see how the formation style still provides effective defensive coverage, but with some likely future mods to counter fire options and the LAC screen, that too many soon be removed as a truly effective method.

There's no question about it. The text has told us numerous times, in great detail. Manticoran and Havenite ships have not been using a wall of battle ever since podnaughts were introduced. A wall of battle obstructs the launching of pods.

SWM wrote:

Valen123456 wrote:In an era with this sort of missile combat, not to mention the potential from LAC's and drones (and the MA spider drive), are we now seeing the seeds for the end of the wall of battle as an effective tactic? I can see how the formation style still provides effective defensive coverage, but with some likely future mods to counter fire options and the LAC screen, that too many soon be removed as a truly effective method.

There's no question about it. The text has told us numerous times, in great detail. Manticoran and Havenite ships have not been using a wall of battle ever since podnaughts were introduced. A wall of battle obstructs the launching of pods.

And in A Rising Thunder it's specifically talks about the new more dispersed defensive formation Honor and 8th fleet had worked out; Formation Tango-Two.

The background, description, and effects (at least during that particular sim) make up all of Chapter 16, so I'm not going to quote that. But under Tango-Two they seem to still operate single SD(P) squadrons in reasonably tight formation, while significantly increasing the separation between squadrons and then positioning additional LACs into the inter-squadron gaps.

Valen123456 wrote:In an era with this sort of missile combat, not to mention the potential from LAC's and drones (and the MA spider drive), are we now seeing the seeds for the end of the wall of battle as an effective tactic? I can see how the formation style still provides effective defensive coverage, but with some likely future mods to counter fire options and the LAC screen, that too many soon be removed as a truly effective method.

SWM wrote: There's no question about it. The text has told us numerous times, in great detail. Manticoran and Havenite ships have not been using a wall of battle ever since podnaughts were introduced. A wall of battle obstructs the launching of pods.

Jonathan_S wrote: And in A Rising Thunder it's specifically talks about the new more dispersed defensive formation Honor and 8th fleet had worked out; Formation Tango-Two.

The background, description, and effects (at least during that particular sim) make up all of Chapter 16, so I'm not going to quote that. But under Tango-Two they seem to still operate single SD(P) squadrons in reasonably tight formation, while significantly increasing the separation between squadrons and then positioning additional LACs into the inter-squadron gaps.

And they've evolved a three-dimensional formation, with layers of anti-missile boats and decoys in front of the capital ships.

It's still appropriate for Solarian Battle Fleet task forces as it lines them up nicely for the skeet shoot.

The wall of battle was standard back in the time prior to Buttercup when the primary method of combat had to do with grasers so it is not surprising that that in an era of massed missile combat that would have to change.

However...

whatever you want to call what substitutes for it, you still do have fleets massing for combat in the new era. You have to in order to assemble the control links that you need to control the stupendous number of missiles that get launched from the pods. Apollo moderates this somewhat, but not completely. It becomes a matter of scale.

In addition to this, if you are going to counter that stupendous number of missiles coming at you, you have to have to be able to have massed anti-missile defense which for the moment Haven and Manticore are using LACs to provide along with keyhole platforms...

So while the old style wall of battle has changed and evolved in the new era, whatever you want to call its substitute has to perform many of the same functions.

Don

n7axw wrote:The wall of battle was standard back in the time prior to Buttercup when the primary method of combat had to do with grasers so it is not surprising that that in an era of massed missile combat that would have to change.

However...

whatever you want to call what substitutes for it, you still do have fleets massing for combat in the new era. You have to in order to assemble the control links that you need to control the stupendous number of missiles that get launched from the pods. Apollo moderates this somewhat, but not completely. It becomes a matter of scale.

In addition to this, if you are going to counter that stupendous number of missiles coming at you, you have to have to be able to have massed anti-missile defense which for the moment Haven and Manticore are using LACs to provide along with keyhole platforms...

So while the old style wall of battle has changed and evolved in the new era, whatever you want to call its substitute has to perform many of the same functions.

Don

Keyhole means a lot more time with the wedges between the ships and the threat axis, so if you look at the wedges, it's more wall-like than ever.

But the spacing is wider, and the screening elements are out toward the enemy and to the sides of the incoming missile fire, rather than in the same plane as the wall like the old days. You could call it the "cup of battle" if you want. And with the wider spacing, the "dribble cup of battle" if you're a helpless wag.

I don't recall the capital ships (and "waller" still does the job of differentiating that smaller, raiding capital ships - battlecruisers - and CLAC's from the larger, fight-til-it's-settled capital ships) deploying in a formation that isn't still more or less flat and stacked perpendicular to the enemy. So as far as that goes, there's still a wall. Just before Buttercup, a wall with a projection was tried by some Havenite forces as a LAC-countermeasure. But that was then. Even now, with the looser wall with LAC's in the gaps, it's still a wall, or a fence at least.

Even if the formation isn't too terribly changed (well, depending on your level of analysis and what counts as too much for you), certainly the combat model has. Missiles are decisive, in a hurry, at stupendous range. Anti-shipping energy weapons are retained just in case, and I wouldn't blame a navy at all if they dispensed with them entirely for more point defense or control links. The wall isn't any longer a formation to expose energy broadsides at 50-100 thousand km, or to turn wedges at once and back away with impunity. It's to provide concentrated mutual active missile defense without masking fire, with the expectation that the only impunity you will ever enjoy comes from tens of millions of kilometers of range or the defeat of the enemy.

There is a massive weakness with present podnoughts in the fact that one shot up the kilts would be a kill seeing as there is a massive hole in them and their ammo is in unarmoured launchers .

If you kill all the pods (soft targets) the Manticore fleet would be limited to a few onboard launchers and short range lac missiles and limited number of mk 16 missiles .

I suggest that stealth lacks will prove incredibly valuable in future conflicts .

floss wrote:There is a massive weakness with present podnoughts in the fact that one shot up the kilts would be a kill seeing as there is a massive hole in them and their ammo is in unarmoured launchers .

If you kill all the pods (soft targets) the Manticore fleet would be limited to a few onboard launchers and short range lac missiles and limited number of mk 16 missiles .

I suggest that stealth lacks will prove incredibly valuable in future conflicts .

The pod chute being a single big hole only happened in the prototype phase - with the Trojan Q-ships. All proper podlayers deploy their pods via a number(6 for SDPs, 4 for BCPs) of channels, each covered by multiple hatches in an airlock style arrangement. The RMN's later designs are even better armoured in that section to contain potential accidents when they went to fusion-powered pods and missiles.

All hatches would be closed up tight around the time an incoming salvo is expected to arrive. The OpFor can counter this by sending a constant stream of missiles, but this comes at the expense of point-defense saturation.

munroburton wrote:
The pod chute being a single big hole only happened in the prototype phase - with the Trojan Q-ships. All proper podlayers deploy their pods via a number(6 for SDPs, 4 for BCPs) of channels, each covered by multiple hatches in an airlock style arrangement. The RMN's later designs are even better armoured in that section to contain potential accidents when they went to fusion-powered pods and missiles.

All hatches would be closed up tight around the time an incoming salvo is expected to arrive. The OpFor can counter this by sending a constant stream of missiles, but this comes at the expense of point-defense saturation.

We saw at the Battle of Solon that the pod bay is still a vulnerable spot. One of the Invictus-class SD(P)s lost its entire pod load to an unlucky hit

It didn't kill the ship, but it did basically tended it toothless offensively.
OTOH we've seen many more podnaughts die from overwhelming fire than we've seen lose their pod at to a freak hit. (Even the wording around the pod bay design changes to the Invictus make it sound like prior to that point a pod bay hit was something only theorized about; though that may have had more to do with how outclassed the Peeps were during Buttercup