Hot air balloons?

So I've been considering at what point the first air capabilities might show up on Safehold. I'm not entirely conversant with all the technologies involved, how they relate to current Safehold capabilities, or how they would or wouldn't fit within the Proscriptions, but my guess would be that Charis wouldn't have any great trouble managing a few hot air balloons, and I think with a bit of logic-chopping, Father Paityr would be able to manage an attestation related to the one he wrote for steam. The question is, would they want to?

As I see it, the big advantage of balloons to Charis would be like the schooners - an excuse for openly presenting knowledge coming from SNARC reports. However, the Temple probably wouldn't have much trouble copying the balloons, and then Charis would have given them a surveillance capability they otherwise might never have gotten. And I don't see the advantage in being able to slightly more freely distribute SNARC reports outweighing the disadvantage of no longer being the only power with aerial reconnaissance capabilities. Then again, the propaganda value of having people traveling through the air yet not being struck down by Langhorne's Rakurai would no doubt be significant. Still, unless Charis comes up with a more offensive way of using balloons (dropping bombs on enemy camps?), it looks to me like it may be decades before anyone is going to be starting any sort of air force.

Thoughts?

Zarz wrote:So I've been considering at what point the first air capabilities might show up on Safehold. I'm not entirely conversant with all the technologies involved, how they relate to current Safehold capabilities, or how they would or wouldn't fit within the Proscriptions, but my guess would be that Charis wouldn't have any great trouble managing a few hot air balloons, and I think with a bit of logic-chopping, Father Paityr would be able to manage an attestation related to the one he wrote for steam. The question is, would they want to?

As I see it, the big advantage of balloons to Charis would be like the schooners - an excuse for openly presenting knowledge coming from SNARC reports. However, the Temple probably wouldn't have much trouble copying the balloons, and then Charis would have given them a surveillance capability they otherwise might never have gotten. And I don't see the advantage in being able to slightly more freely distribute SNARC reports outweighing the disadvantage of no longer being the only power with aerial reconnaissance capabilities. Then again, the propaganda value of having people traveling through the air yet not being struck down by Langhorne's Rakurai would no doubt be significant. Still, unless Charis comes up with a more offensive way of using balloons (dropping bombs on enemy camps?), it looks to me like it may be decades before anyone is going to be starting any sort of air force.

Thoughts?

You raise some very valid points, both for and against inventing the balloon. This subject has been discussed several times over the years. A good thread on the topic can be found here: http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6695&hilit=balloon

There are several other threads that discuss it, including its use in naval warfare. Just search for "balloon" and you'll find us arguing back and forth and suggesting hang gliders and zeppelins as well.

Hot air powered flight is something I'm sure we'll see eventually - after all, hot air isn't much different than steam, so Paityr Wylsynn wouldn't have any problem twisting the Proscriptions to allow it. As you've pointed out, it would be more beneficial to the CoGA when they were facing an allied force with a commander who has access to SNARCs. On the other hand, Hanth is working blind, and even if Ahbraim Zhevons drops by now and then, a hot air balloon for observation would be useful where a titan oak or a handy cliff aren't available.

Of course a hot air balloon would be just as useful to the CoGA forces as well...

McGuiness wrote:
You raise some very valid points, both for and against inventing the balloon. This subject has been discussed several times over the years. A good thread on the topic can be found here: http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6695&hilit=balloon

There are several other threads that discuss it, including its use in naval warfare. Just search for "balloon" and you'll find us arguing back and forth and suggesting hang gliders and zeppelins as well.

Thanks! I only found the Safehold series a little while ago, so while I've looked back through some of the older forum posts, there are a vast number I've missed. Looks like I have some more reading to do while I wait for the next snippet!

One question which came up in previous discussions about balloons is whether the Proscriptions specifically reserve travel through the air to the Angels. It would be a reasonable thing to include in the Writ, but it is equally reasonable for Langhorne to not bother mentioning it. We have no evidence for or against this being in the Writ; it is an open question.

Technically, Safehold has had the technology to build hot air balloons since the Day of Creation. So the best we can say is that balloons could be introduced at any time, assuming there is nothing in the Writ to prohibit it.

Why hot air balloons? With the petroleum industry about to be reborn, I want the first flying thing the CoGA sees to be a Fokker DR-1, strafing their lines and dropping bombs on their heads.

Follow that up with the P-51 Mustang type "upgrade", then on to the F-16 "upgrade"...

Isilith wrote:Why hot air balloons? With the petroleum industry about to be reborn, I want the first flying thing the CoGA sees to be a Fokker DR-1, strafing their lines and dropping bombs on their heads.

Follow that up with the P-51 Mustang type "upgrade", then on to the F-16 "upgrade"...

Debate over internal combustion engines has caused the largest disputes on this forum. There is a strong feeling among some that internal combustion engines will not be approved under the Writ. There is also the problem of electric sparks needed for internal combustion engines.

Now, there are certain kinds of diesel engines which don't require electric sparks. And there are external combustion engines which don't need electricity, too. A number of posters on these forums strongly support those ideas. But there are still some who are skeptical about whether they can be approved under the Writ.

The reason hot air balloons are brought up so often is because there is no reason they cannot be allowed under the Writ unless there is an explicit Proscription against air travel. No one on this forum or in Safehold would even blink at the idea. If there is nothing in the Writ about air travel, then hot air balloons can be introduced without any concerns at all, unlike powered aircraft.

SWM wrote:

Isilith wrote:Why hot air balloons? With the petroleum industry about to be reborn, I want the first flying thing the CoGA sees to be a Fokker DR-1, strafing their lines and dropping bombs on their heads.

Follow that up with the P-51 Mustang type "upgrade", then on to the F-16 "upgrade"...

Debate over internal combustion engines has caused the largest disputes on this forum. There is a strong feeling among some that internal combustion engines will not be approved under the Writ. There is also the problem of electric sparks needed for internal combustion engines.

Now, there are certain kinds of diesel engines which don't require electric sparks. And there are external combustion engines which don't need electricity, too. A number of posters on these forums strongly support those ideas. But there are still some who are skeptical about whether they can be approved under the Writ.

The reason hot air balloons are brought up so often is because there is no reason they cannot be allowed under the Writ unless there is an explicit Proscription against air travel. No one on this forum or in Safehold would even blink at the idea. If there is nothing in the Writ about air travel, then hot air balloons can be introduced without any concerns at all, unlike powered aircraft.

Simple solution then. Zepplins with diesel engines. Observation, bombing, sheer terror factor.

Can you imagine an EoC Zepplin, dropping pamphlets down onto Zion? Clyntahn would blow a gasket.

Isilith wrote:

SWM wrote:Debate over internal combustion engines has caused the largest disputes on this forum. There is a strong feeling among some that internal combustion engines will not be approved under the Writ. There is also the problem of electric sparks needed for internal combustion engines.

Now, there are certain kinds of diesel engines which don't require electric sparks. And there are external combustion engines which don't need electricity, too. A number of posters on these forums strongly support those ideas. But there are still some who are skeptical about whether they can be approved under the Writ.

The reason hot air balloons are brought up so often is because there is no reason they cannot be allowed under the Writ unless there is an explicit Proscription against air travel. No one on this forum or in Safehold would even blink at the idea. If there is nothing in the Writ about air travel, then hot air balloons can be introduced without any concerns at all, unlike powered aircraft.

Simple solution then. Zepplins with diesel engines. Observation, bombing, sheer terror factor.

Yes, that's been suggested and discussed quite frequently, in the threads mentioned above. The Fokker and Mustang are rather more of a problem, as I said. And hot air balloons are easy.