What exactly is powering the temple?

The solar power idea has merit, remember the Key?

captinjoehenry wrote:Hi this thought just occurred to me. What is powering the temple? Because if it was nuclear powered a fission pile would have run out long ago they just cannot run for almost a thousand years without refueling.

With a few minor quibbles, I concur. I reserve judgment on the potential for a thorium reactor with a semi-intelligent mining system to extract fresh thorium, but overall I agree. Not a conventional fission reactor though. They are temperamental, and there are long-term problems with radioactive embrittlement.

captinjoehenry wrote:Now, if it was a fusion plant that might work, but then the temple would need a water intake from the lake so it could get a continuous supply of hydrogen. But a fusion plant would be readily detectable from quite a distance.

I disagree. They must have been using fusion power for their star-ship power plants, as no other method would have been possible, and they were perfectly capable of shielding those. If they hadn't been the operation would have been doomed from the first. So clearly, the Terran Federation, at the time of the escape to Safehold, had sufficient technology to shield such mechanisms.

captinjoehenry wrote:Now it cannot be a hydroelectric plant as there is nowhere for the water to leave the temple.

Although I agree it is most likely not hydroelectric your reason fails to account for the possibility of underground discharge structures. We know that the temple does possess some underground structures, but at this point, it is impossible to assess their nature to eliminate or to confirm the possibility. Hydroelectric would, however require an intake structure at some elevation from the temple and we have no textev for such a structure. Further, such a structure would provide a built-in vulnerability for the temple and I do not see the designers incorporating such.

captinjoehenry wrote:Also if the temple is using a geothermal plant then i would guess that there would not be that much exhaust heat. So I guess that the temple is powered by a geothermal power plant but that would have issues of its own.

I consider geothermal the most likely source of energy for the temple, with a fusion facility as an internal backup. I would be willing to bet that combination offers the most long-term maintainable power source, as well as the best survivability against assault. Large pressurized hydrogen stores could hold the Temple against a siege, even if the structure was completely undermined. At the same time using geothermal as the prevailing power method limits overall detectability.

captinjoehenry wrote:It cannot use wind or solar power as both would require above ground structures.

I concur with your conclusion, although rather less so with your reasons. Wind power would require identifiable structures. Solar power might not require separate structures, and could be built into the temple. Solar however is trivially easy to demolish with EMP or laser and nuke-flash weapons. It is simply too fragile to depend on in a battle situation.

captinjoehenry wrote:So my best guess is that the temple is built on top of a natural gas or oil deposit and it is using some built in refinery allowing it to have a near limitless power supply.

Well if we allow for it using fuel cells, possibly. Fuel cells would allow for a fairly long-term solution as they lack moving parts. Assuming that you can replenish and reconstruct the catalytic elements it might survive over that duration. I just cannot seem to find any references to chimneys on the temple though, and the presence of hydrocarbon byproducts would be a dead giveaway in any sort of atmospheric analysis. Further, the underground pumps and piping could be ruined by a determined enemy undermining and destroying your subsurface access to the natural gas/oil reserve. You could store large quantities of CNG or LNG though, for a siege situation, so I will not entirely rule the idea out. On the other hand, there are several proposed and even lab available technologies that suggest you could store even more hydrogen with greater energy potential, for use in a fusion process in the same space, so CNG/LNG storage is not the most efficient method of powering the Temple in any case.

It also seems like an abnormally crude and primitive idea for the level of technology we believe the TF had reached. There may also have been a cultural bias against such a solution if the planners knew their history of Earth in the mid 20th to 21st century.

captinjoehenry wrote:So come one come all and share your thoughts on what exactly is keeping the mystical magical temple powered for all of these hundreds of years.

Geothermal power for baseline requirements backed by fusion reactors for emergency or peak power needs.
How I would have done it.

Cheers;

Larry

Larry wrote:Well if we allow for it using fuel cells, possibly. Fuel cells would allow for a fairly long-term solution as they lack moving parts. Assuming that you can replenish and reconstruct the catalytic elements it might survive over that duration. I just cannot seem to find any references to chimneys on the temple though, and the presence of hydrocarbon byproducts would be a dead giveaway in any sort of atmospheric analysis. Further, the underground pumps and piping could be ruined by a determined enemy undermining and destroying your subsurface access to the natural gas/oil reserve. You could store large quantities of CNG or LNG though, for a siege situation, so I will not entirely rule the idea out. On the other hand, there are several proposed and even lab available technologies that suggest you could store even more hydrogen with greater energy potential, for use in a fusion process in the same space, so CNG/LNG storage is not the most efficient method of powering the Temple in any case.

It also seems like an abnormally crude and primitive idea for the level of technology we believe the TF had reached. There may also have been a cultural bias against such a solution if the planners knew their history of Earth in the mid 20th to 21st century.

captinjoehenry wrote:So come one come all and share your thoughts on what exactly is keeping the mystical magical temple powered for all of these hundreds of years.

Geothermal power for baseline requirements backed by fusion reactors for emergency or peak power needs.
How I would have done it.

Cheers;

Larry

Whatever they build has to be effectively maintenance-free and not subject to significant degradation over long times - because there's no one there to do the replacement work.
That kind of limits the choices. All active reactors (fissile, fusion, bio), conventional heat engines, water-turbines, etc. do not fulfill that requirement (even if driven by geothermal energy BTW).
What I'd see as a possibility would be a thermoelectric generator - well a lot of. Drive those beneath the temple and collect the Watts each one produces and you might get the MW the current temple needs.
For higher, short-term needs the picture is less clear. A stirling engine driven generator might be a possibility. But for those, fatigue and wear&tear will be an issue. So running those only temporarily makes sense. That'd give you some flexibility for maintenance, of course. And of course, the heat source needs to be a solid state conductor to the same geothermal heat source, with a working fluid of e.g. nitrogen.
That way, the only danger to your power supply would be massive seismic or volcanic events below the Temple (or Nimue's Cave). Now, if your electrical wiring is from battlesteel, and your moving parts from armorplast, then you've built for eternity. I just wonder what the conductivity of battlesteel is like...

anwi wrote:Whatever they build has to be effectively maintenance-free and not subject to significant degradation over long times - because there's no one there to do the replacement work.
That kind of limits the choices. All active reactors (fissile, fusion, bio), conventional heat engines, water-turbines, etc. do not fulfill that requirement (even if driven by geothermal energy BTW).

I would not expect them to go for a maintenance free design, precisely because anything is vulnerable to degradation over time. Some things are less vulnerable than others is all.

Rather, I'd expect them to make provisions for maintenance, and pick whatever sources of energy they want to with the expectation that (subtle, invisible to human eyes or "miraculous" if seen) maintenance is going on.

The maintenance would be provided by robots, which would be maintaining and rebuilding one another and drawing on the same ultimate power sources. (And no reason not to have several - likely geothermal and/or fusion as the primary ones and hydroelectric and solar for tertiary sources. Cover the bases!) Consider the similar situation by the same author on Pardal in the Dahak series: their Temple had robot servitors doing the work for the Temple and their OBS equivalent. If we've not seem the angelic servants at work or mentioned, well, there's a whole lot to mention in the books and it's a detail that's never yet been plot-relevant, and maybe the Safehold ones can do all their work out of sight anyway.

Simple, the temple runs on faith, you heretics!

SPOILER????

We know from the textev that the Temple has robotic "servitors" that scrub the floors and most likely do whatever other chores and maintenance need doing. So whatever power source is used (and there may be more than one) we don't need to worry overmuch about maintenance. If some robots need to exist to keep the Temple's power sources running, then they exist!

We know that the geothermal tap used by Nimue's Cave has been running without problems for centuries, and it's running quite well at the moment, despite the increased power needs now that OWL is running full-time, Nahrmahn is ensconced in his artificial world, and the atmosphere has been switched to oxygen and food services are up and running. There's no reason to assume that the Temple couldn't use a similar system. After all, it's likely to endure longer than the surrounding mountain ranges due to the materials used in its construction!

Since Merlin has detected "several" power sources underneath the Temple, there may indeed be some fusion generators in use. Merlin is powered by one after all, and he's effectively immortal. Any water needed can be siphoned from the nearby river - remember the fountains in the Plaza of Martyrs? The Temple is already pumping water, and has done so since its inception. So if it needs water to extract hydrogen, it's available, and those handy robots are also available to keep the intakes clear and the system running properly.

So I vote for a geothermal tap, or multiple fusion generators, (or both) with robots to keep things running smoothly. A geothermal tap would explain the excess heat that the Temple vents, but I can't see why fusion generators would need to vent heat in a similar fashion.

One of these days a bunch of heavily armed Charisians will show up and we'll find out exactly what's in the Temple basement...

Larry wrote:I just cannot seem to find any references to chimneys on the temple though,

You can't?

There's mention in almost every book of Zion poor huddling around the Temple's waste heat vents trying to keep warm, especially during Zion winters.

Which of course means that said vents aren't "chimneys" as such, but ground level features at the base of the Temple's walls.

evilauthor wrote:

Larry wrote:I just cannot seem to find any references to chimneys on the temple though,

You can't?

There's mention in almost every book of Zion poor huddling around the Temple's waste heat vents trying to keep warm, especially during Zion winters.

Which of course means that said vents aren't "chimneys" as such, but ground level features at the base of the Temple's walls.

Although if those vents were emitting diesel fumes, the poor of Zion wouldn't be able to huddle over them for warmth without choking to death. That casts a bit more doubt on that theory...

McGuiness wrote:

evilauthor wrote:You can't?

There's mention in almost every book of Zion poor huddling around the Temple's waste heat vents trying to keep warm, especially during Zion winters.

Which of course means that said vents aren't "chimneys" as such, but ground level features at the base of the Temple's walls.

Although if those vents were emitting diesel fumes, the poor of Zion wouldn't be able to huddle over them for warmth without choking to death. That casts a bit more doubt on that theory...

Just to play devil's advocate, I am sure that TF level tech lets them completely scrub emissions of toxic material. So, all they are doing is venting excess heat.

( I personally think it is a core tap backed up by fusion plants. )

Isilith wrote:

McGuiness wrote:]Although if those vents were emitting diesel fumes, the poor of Zion wouldn't be able to huddle over them for warmth without choking to death. That casts a bit more doubt on that theory...

Just to play devil's advocate, I am sure that TF level tech lets them completely scrub emissions of toxic material. So, all they are doing is venting excess heat.

( I personally think it is a core tap backed up by fusion plants. )

You caught me there - I'm so dubious that the Temple is powered by 18th century technology that I overlook what 24th century technology could do to clean it up its emissions.

We're on the same page about what we think actually powers the Temple though. A geothermal tap is much simpler to implement and maintain than a diesel engine that requires the Temple to be built over a large oil deposit, plus we already have an example of a geothermal tap working for centuries to power Nimue's Cave. Since Merlin is powered by a fusion reactor, I don't think that small ones require additional hydrogen nearly as often as this thread seems to think, so using them for small, worrisome purposes in the Temple basement makes sense to me.

The Temple's electricity is probably generated by a geothermal tap. The energy sources we should worry about are most likely powered by fusion reactors. That makes the entire theory of an VP under the temple a bit more complicated, since the VR unit it "lives in" could easily be powered by the central tap, and wouldn't need a reactor at all, except perhaps as an emergency backup.

RFC is on record that Langhorne didn't bring any PICAs with him. I wonder if one of the Archangels did the same thing Nahrmahn and OWL did and figured out how to create a PICA from scratch? Were that the case though, we'd be looking at an immortal archangel ruling the planet with an iron fist, which certainly isn't the case.

Curiouser and curiouser...