What exactly is powering the temple?

captinjoehenry wrote:Hi this thought just occured to me. What is powering the temple? Because if it was nuclear powered a fission pile would have run out long ago they just cannot run for almost a thousand years without refueling. Now if it was a fusion plant that might work but then the temple would need a water intake from the lake so it could get a continuous supply of hydrogen. But a fusion plant would be readily detectable from quite a distance. Now it cannot be a hydroelectric plant as there is no where for the water to leave the temple. Also if the temple is using a geothermal plant then i would guess that there would not be that much exhaust heat. So i guess that the temple is powered by a geothermal power plant but that would have issues of its own. It cannot use wind or solar power as both would require above ground structures. So my best guess is that the temple is built on top of a natural gas or oil deposit and it is using some built in refinery allowing it to have a near limitless power supply.

So come one come all and share your thoughts on what exactly is keeping the mystical magical temple powered for all of these hundreds of years.

Geothermal tap is easy, you just need a deep enough hole. The deeper you go the hotter it gets. Drill down a couple of kilometers (typical oil well depths and you can get useful heat anywhere, inject water or ammonia with a low enough boiling point and stick a turbine or magnetohydrodynamic generator on the top (assuming you don't use thermoelectric generators (thermocouples)- therefore no moving parts). Waste heat gives you heating in winter, a pipe into the lake gives you a heat sink (and cooling in summer, but given the location in the near arctic, heating will be more important than cooling).
Nuclear power plants (either fusion or fission) able to run for centuries are complex beasts with large footprints, electromagnetic (including gamma emissions) and electrical signatures.

Geothermal power is, I think, the most plausible choice, but don't discount fusion (or even fission) yet. AFAIK, the Federation had been using fusion power for decades, perhaps centuries, before running into the Achu... I mean Gbaba. With mature technology, there's usually a tradeoff between rugged reliability and cutting-edge efficiency, and I think it's very possible that the Federation (or the Archangels, or wathever) could design an EXTREMELY rugged, reliable fusion (or fission) plant that could last for centuries of continuous operation. Merlin's power plant is probably in the middle of the field: highly compact, with relatively low power output, and probably some nanite-based self-repair capabilities (more than once, Merlin remarks that he is close to functional immortality).

Thoughts, anyone?

peke wrote:Geothermal power is, I think, the most plausible choice, but don't discount fusion (or even fission) yet. AFAIK, the Federation had been using fusion power for decades, perhaps centuries, before running into the Achu... I mean Gbaba. With mature technology, there's usually a tradeoff between rugged reliability and cutting-edge efficiency, and I think it's very possible that the Federation (or the Archangels, or wathever) could design an EXTREMELY rugged, reliable fusion (or fission) plant that could last for centuries of continuous operation. Merlin's power plant is probably in the middle of the field: highly compact, with relatively low power output, and probably some nanite-based self-repair capabilities (more than once, Merlin remarks that he is close to functional immortality).

Thoughts, anyone?

Merlin's PICA is powered by a micro-fusion generator so I don't see any problems with the Temple being powered by one or more fusion reactors for redundancy. I do doubt they would use fission, since the rods needs changing regularly (if it's anything like current nuclear technology).

peke wrote:Geothermal power is, I think, the most plausible choice, but don't discount fusion (or even fission) yet. AFAIK, the Federation had been using fusion power for decades, perhaps centuries, before running into the Achu... I mean Gbaba. With mature technology, there's usually a tradeoff between rugged reliability and cutting-edge efficiency, and I think it's very possible that the Federation (or the Archangels, or wathever) could design an EXTREMELY rugged, reliable fusion (or fission) plant that could last for centuries of continuous operation. Merlin's power plant is probably in the middle of the field: highly compact, with relatively low power output, and probably some nanite-based self-repair capabilities (more than once, Merlin remarks that he is close to functional immortality).

Thoughts, anyone?

well the main issue with fission plants is that unless you are able to refuel them even if they are breeder plants i doubt they could last for almost a 1000 years on one fuel load. Now this issue is even larger in a fusion plant as they do not normally produce more fuel as they operate. But they can extract the fuel they need from sea water. So if the temple has a se water intake and a processing plant it could keep itself fueled for a very long time but that would depend on a water intake that could get blocked or covered from almost a 1000 years of sediment.

Now for the geothermal plant i agree that is probably the most likely but i do think that the safest bet would probably be a large diesel engine that is running off of a tap into an oil deposit beneath the temple. Now this has several merits as a single large diesel engine running off of a whole oil deposit would have a nearly limitless supply of fuel and it would be totally self lubricating and if it was built with TF tech it could probably keep running forever and if the oil deposit is pressurized you would not even need any pumps to get the fuel out of the ground and a diesel engine does not have any of the meltdown or containment lose issue that nuclear plants have and there would be no need for any finely balance turbine blades or any need to deal with high temperature and pressure steam which would be an issue with geothermal plants. Also a diesel engine would not need any pumps to force water or some working fluid back underground which a geothermal plant would most likely need.

Um...

...solar power anyone? They "only" need to power environmental systems. And some special stuff in the basement.

Humanity has reached to the stars. I'm sure they've developed solar panels with close to 100% efficiency as well which can be included in the armor plast roof. Plus some kind of ultra-effective accumulators which are able to store enough energy to survive the winter without Clyntahn freezing his ass off. Combine that with very effective thermal management and you get something with no moving parts and high endurance.

Geothermal power sounds unlikely to me. You'd need a turbine, and keeping moving parts moving for centuries is not that easy a proposition...

clancy688 wrote:Um...

...solar power anyone? They "only" need to power environmental systems. And some special stuff in the basement.

Humanity has reached to the stars. I'm sure they've developed solar panels with close to 100% efficiency as well which can be included in the armor plast roof. Plus some kind of ultra-effective accumulators which are able to store enough energy to survive the winter without Clyntahn freezing his ass off. Combine that with very effective thermal management and you get something with no moving parts and high endurance.

Geothermal power sounds unlikely to me. You'd need a turbine, and keeping moving parts moving for centuries is not that easy a proposition...

the issue with solar power is that it is weather dependent and it requires surface structures that must be fairly large and obvious. Now it might be using an orbital solar farm but that also would require a receiving dish and would not explain the power sources under the temple as that implies generators of some sort. Also if they are using a orbital solar farm I am fairly certain that owl would have mentioned that in OAR when he did the full sky search. And a beamed power relay would be not very stealthy at all and would be counterproductive from a hiding perspective along with being much more vulnerable to some form of attack then an internal generator of some sort.

clancy688 wrote:Um...

...solar power anyone? They "only" need to power environmental systems. And some special stuff in the basement.

Somehow I doubt that a facility designed to withstand low end nuke strikes is going to rely on something as flimsy as solar power collectors or externally beamed power to remain operational. The guy who designed the Temple is going to want to keep the Temple's power sources secure from attack.

captinjoehenry wrote:

peke wrote:Geothermal power is, I think, the most plausible choice, but don't discount fusion (or even fission) yet. AFAIK, the Federation had been using fusion power for decades, perhaps centuries, before running into the Achu... I mean Gbaba. With mature technology, there's usually a tradeoff between rugged reliability and cutting-edge efficiency, and I think it's very possible that the Federation (or the Archangels, or wathever) could design an EXTREMELY rugged, reliable fusion (or fission) plant that could last for centuries of continuous operation. Merlin's power plant is probably in the middle of the field: highly compact, with relatively low power output, and probably some nanite-based self-repair capabilities (more than once, Merlin remarks that he is close to functional immortality).

Thoughts, anyone?

well the main issue with fission plants is that unless you are able to refuel them even if they are breeder plants i doubt they could last for almost a 1000 years on one fuel load. Now this issue is even larger in a fusion plant as they do not normally produce more fuel as they operate. But they can extract the fuel they need from sea water. So if the temple has a se water intake and a processing plant it could keep itself fueled for a very long time but that would depend on a water intake that could get blocked or covered from almost a 1000 years of sediment.

Now for the geothermal plant i agree that is probably the most likely but i do think that the safest bet would probably be a large diesel engine that is running off of a tap into an oil deposit beneath the temple. Now this has several merits as a single large diesel engine running off of a whole oil deposit would have a nearly limitless supply of fuel and it would be totally self lubricating and if it was built with TF tech it could probably keep running forever and if the oil deposit is pressurized you would not even need any pumps to get the fuel out of the ground and a diesel engine does not have any of the meltdown or containment lose issue that nuclear plants have and there would be no need for any finely balance turbine blades or any need to deal with high temperature and pressure steam which would be an issue with geothermal plants. Also a diesel engine would not need any pumps to force water or some working fluid back underground which a geothermal plant would most likely need.

I know that we are talking tech in the distant future, but the notion of a diesel engine running a thousand years without breaking down seems a bit of a stretch to me with all of those moving parts, each one a potential failure point...

Don

captinjoehenry wrote:which can be included in the armor plast roof. Plus some kind of ultra-effective accumulators which are able to store enough energy to survive the winter without Clyntahn freezing his ass off.

the issue with solar power is that it is weather dependent and it requires surface structures that must be fairly large and obvious. Now it might be using an orbital solar farm but that also would require a receiving dish and would not explain the power sources under the temple as that implies generators of some sort.

I basically already addressed your points in my post...

Somehow I doubt that a facility designed to withstand low end nuke strikes is going to rely on something as flimsy as solar power collectors or externally beamed power to remain operational.

Flimsy? What the hell? This isn't about "who has the biggest pp in Safehold". Moreover, solar power isn't "flimsy". Current tech level solar power is. Possible future tech level solar power isn't. It's the easiest, most reliable and most servicable way to create power for centuries.

clancy688 wrote:Flimsy? What the hell? This isn't about "who has the biggest pp in Safehold". Moreover, solar power isn't "flimsy". Current tech level solar power is. Possible future tech level solar power isn't. It's the easiest, most reliable and most servicable way to create power for centuries.

Is it sturdy enough to remain operational after getting nuked? Because I was talking about them in context of resisting attacks because the Temple was designed to resist attacks up to all but the heaviest nukes.

Recall that Merlin said he'd have to use a nuke powerful enough to kill all of Zion just to be sure he could kill whatever is in the basement. Now would the guy who designed the Temple to be that resistant to that kind of attack be willing to depend on an exposed power supply that can't be anywhere near as well protected if it's to do its job at all? I don't think so!

So when I say "flimsy", I'm saying any solar/beamed power setup would be flimsy compared to the Temple.