GOD EXISTS

Note to The E. When someone believes so strongly in the existence of their own particular invisible friend, no amount of logic will shake that belief.

People insist on logical evidence in order to trust all aspects of their lives, except religion. Going to a doctor you need to know that they are qualified, you only fly with trained pilots, engaging a builder or architect to build your home, in all cases you need verifiable proof. In religion if you are that kind of person who just knows, no amount of logic or lack of evidence matters. I envy them in a way as they know they will live for ever, where as (like Dylan Thomas) I will rage against the failing of the light.

Please read the comments.

How can you not believe in God if you love Him? How can you fail to do His wishes if you follow His commandments?

The E wrote:Ahhhh, the old "It doesn't matter if you believe in god, if you follow his commandments, you will be raised to heaven no matter what you believe in".

So if it doesn't matter what anyone believes, why all the ancillary rules about converting the nonbelievers? Why all the insistence that morality can only come from following or being exposed to christian teachings, when it seems perfectly possible for someone to act moral without ever hearing of them?

Believing there is no God requires as much faith as belief in God. Prove the universe was created by anything other that a Creator. You cannot. So believing that assertion requires faith not logic. There might be sufficient evidence for one to support that faith. The same can be said about the religious. Absent proof believing in something requires faith.

Daryl wrote:Note to The E. When someone believes so strongly in the existence of their own particular invisible friend, no amount of logic will shake that belief.

People insist on logical evidence in order to trust all aspects of their lives, except religion. Going to a doctor you need to know that they are qualified, you only fly with trained pilots, engaging a builder or architect to build your home, in all cases you need verifiable proof. In religion if you are that kind of person who just knows, no amount of logic or lack of evidence matters. I envy them in a way as they know they will live for ever, where as (like Dylan Thomas) I will rage against the failing of the light.

PeterZ wrote:Please read the comments.

How can you not believe in God if you love Him? How can you fail to do His wishes if you follow His commandments?

How can you follow his commandments if you were born long before any of his prophets appeared on the scene to tell you about them?
How can you love an entity without anything to indicate that that entity even exists?
Can a believer in the mayan pantheon truly be said to believe and love the christian god?
Can a culture that does not have a primary christian influence (be it because of separation through distance or by virtue of existing before such a thing as a christian appeared on the scene) follow the commandments of christianity?

The E wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Please read the comments.

How can you not believe in God if you love Him? How can you fail to do His wishes if you follow His commandments?

How can you follow his commandments if you were born long before any of his prophets appeared on the scene to tell you about them?
How can you love an entity without anything to indicate that that entity even exists?
Can a believer in the mayan pantheon truly be said to believe and love the christian god?
Can a culture that does not have a primary christian influence (be it because of separation through distance or by virtue of existing before such a thing as a christian appeared on the scene) follow the commandments of christianity?

Because He reaches out to these individuals and touches them. Further, He expects Christians to reach out and share His love. How they respond to that touch is up to them. That you view the world and see nothing of God's activity does not mean He is inactive. I look and see His hand in so many places that I marvel that you see nothing.

Christ came to Earth to provide an expanded revelation as we, as individuals and our societies, became ready to understand it. How God treated His children in times before Christ was different than He treats them today. The Old Testament describes his relationship with the Jews which is different than the relationship He describes in the New Testament. The best example is like treating a six year old the same as an 18 year old. The former is not ready for many of the concepts the latter has had time to understands pretty well. Expecting that God would not understand that basic difference in mankind is more than a tad silly.

To assume that God never touched anyone but Jews and Christians is hubris in the extreme for a Christian. Were the 3 wise men searching for Christ before his birth Jews? No. Yet he touched them. The Bible describes and expanding relationship between God and a select group of people that begins with Abram leads to Christ and His teachings. It is not a moment by moment diary of God's works on Earth. So, yes, I believe provisions were made for those born before Christ that is consistent with His love for all His children.

PeterZ wrote:

The E wrote: by PeterZ Please read the comments.

How can you not believe in God if you love Him? How can you fail to do His wishes if you follow His commandments?


How can you follow his commandments if you were born long before any of his prophets appeared on the scene to tell you about them?
How can you love an entity without anything to indicate that that entity even exists?
Can a believer in the mayan pantheon truly be said to believe and love the christian god?
Can a culture that does not have a primary christian influence (be it because of separation through distance or by virtue of existing before such a thing as a christian appeared on the scene) follow the commandments of christianity?

Because He reaches out to these individuals and touches them. Further, He expects Christians to reach out and share His love. How they respond to that touch is up to them. That you view the world and see nothing of God's activity does not mean He is inactive. I look and see His hand in so many places that I marvel that you see nothing.

Christ came to Earth to provide an expanded revelation as we, as individuals and our societies, became ready to understand it. How God treated His children in times before Christ was different than He treats them today. The Old Testament describes his relationship with the Jews which is different than the relationship He describes in the New Testament. The best example is like treating a six year old the same as an 18 year old. The former is not ready for many of the concepts the latter has had time to understands pretty well. Expecting that God would not understand that basic difference in mankind is more than a tad silly.

To assume that God never touched anyone but Jews and Christians is hubris in the extreme for a Christian. Were the 3 wise men searching for Christ before his birth Jews? No. Yet he touched them. The Bible describes and expanding relationship between God and a select group of people that begins with Abram leads to Christ and His teachings. It is not a moment by moment diary of God's works on Earth. So, yes, I believe provisions were made for those born before Christ that is consistent with His love for all His children.

*cough* How can you say and believe that? People who lived and died hundreds to tens of thousands of years before Christ was born cannot, by virtue of the Christian faith, be allowed in heaven because they never knew Christ, or after the birth and death, were simply too far away from any Christians to know about Christianity to be saved. Your assumption suggests, heavily, that you don't have to be a Christian to get into heaven. And frankly it's a very egotistical view of saying that god touches everyone (or that god is who created the universe), That is a VERY narcissistic view to have or to claim. Especially when said religion didn't exist before 2,000 years ago and the one it was based on was specifically limited to a very small population (only the jews were going to go to heaven, everyone else were gentiles and likely destined for hell. Sucks to be born in the wrong religion..)

Believing there is no God requires as much faith as belief in God. Prove the universe was created by anything other that a Creator. You cannot. So believing that assertion requires faith not logic. There might be sufficient evidence for one to support that faith. The same can be said about the religious. Absent proof believing in something requires faith.

We're not asking for faith, we're asking for facts and logic. You are the one saying we should take it on faith rather than logic. Seeing and understanding how the world works. So far many of us haven't seen any facts proving that God or a god or gods, exists. All we're told is we need to believe, to have faith that God/god/the gods exist. With no facts or logic to back it up.

The E wrote:Can a culture that does not have a primary christian influence (be it because of separation through distance or by virtue of existing before such a thing as a christian appeared on the scene) follow the commandments of [Christianity]?

The "Commandments" are from the Torah - Jewish - & far predate Christ. As for people who were separated by geography & NEVER heard of Christ/God (as I understand it), those who were evil, thieves, murderers, cannibals, "High Priests" performing human sacrifices, etc... they will be judged. those who were not truly evil, Pre-contact Hawaiian islander or Inca farmer who never really hurt anyone & tried to live right, etc... those people will not be sent to hell per-say but to purgatory (a section of hell without the persecution/punishment - like a holding area) they will then, later, be given a chance to accept God and be freed or reject him and proceed to Hell. (Just as Children who die before they are old enough to understand).

Zakharra wrote:

*cough* How can you say and believe that? People who lived and died hundreds to tens of thousands of years before Christ was born cannot, by virtue of the Christian faith, be allowed in heaven because they never knew Christ, or after the birth and death, were simply too far away from any Christians to know about Christianity to be saved. Your assumption suggests, heavily, that you don't have to be a Christian to get into heaven. And frankly it's a very egotistical view of saying that god touches everyone (or that god is who created the universe), That is a VERY narcissistic view to have or to claim. Especially when said religion didn't exist before 2,000 years ago and the one it was based on was specifically limited to a very small population (only the jews were going to go to heaven, everyone else were gentiles and likely destined for hell. Sucks to be born in the wrong religion..)

Believing there is no God requires as much faith as belief in God. Prove the universe was created by anything other that a Creator. You cannot. So believing that assertion requires faith not logic. There might be sufficient evidence for one to support that faith. The same can be said about the religious. Absent proof believing in something requires faith.

We're not asking for faith, we're asking for facts and logic. You are the one saying we should take it on faith rather than logic. Seeing and understanding how the world works. So far many of us haven't seen any facts proving that God or a god or gods, exists. All we're told is we need to believe, to have faith that God/god/the gods exist. With no facts or logic to back it up.

God was there before the Universe existed. God entered into relationships with Jews before Christ expanded upon the Old Testament Commandments. Are they not provided for? I believe they are. You may believe as you like. Regardless of our beliefs, God will treat Jews justly and often if not universally with Grace. The same will be true for other non-Christians throughout time. If such a person loves God and treats others with love as Jesus calls for, I trust God's judgment upon that worthy soul will be consistent with the New Testament teachings. This is true regardless of when that individual lived.

The idea that we must refer to "the Christian God" specifically when committing ourselves to Him is a bit silly. There is only one God, the Creator of all things. Reaching out to Him regardless of the name used to refer to Him to other men and women with love serves the Greatest Commandment. Doing one's best to love one's neighbors as you would be loved serves the second Commandment.

Discovering the New Testament and learning of the best ways to express one's love for God is priceless for better achieving what God wants for each of us. Recognizing Him, loving Him and accepting what He desires that we do is sufficient to enter into relationship with Him. That relationship does not end.

I am relying on logic. To believe without proof is an act of faith. Tautology. To believe anything besides a conscious Creator is responsible for the Universe absent proof is an act of faith. Again tautology. We all claim evidence supporting our beliefs, but only the agnostic doubter stands on logically firm ground.

Zakharra wrote:...frankly it's a very egotistical view of saying that god touches everyone (or that god is who created the universe), That is a VERY narcissistic view to have or to claim.

How do you figure that - it is the opposite of egotistical or narcissistic.

Zakharra wrote:...We're not asking for faith, we're asking for facts and logic. You are the one saying we should take it on faith rather than logic.

Who said you should be given facts? It's egotistical and narcissistic to think God HAS to provide YOU with facts. As a child were you ever told to do something by your parents? & when you asked why, what did they say? "Because I said to!" as PeterZ said:

PeterZ wrote:The best example is like treating a six year old the same as an 18 year old

No, not 6-Vs-18-YO more like 3-Vs-7-YO

Zakharra wrote:...So far many of us haven't seen any facts proving that God or a god or gods, exists...

Sure you have - you just make up reasons to reject them. & then say they don't exist. The Bible/Torah book of Genesis describes God creating the universe. a description that directly corresponds to the Big Bang & has been around for thousands of years before modern Astronomy. How could some "off-his-rocker Kook" in the desert come up with such an accurate description? He can't - not without help from someone who was there. & who was there? do you know anyone, any sentient life form who could survive the Big Bang? According to current Quantum Physics objects don't exist unless observed, they are in a state of "probability". That means that until something is observed by a sentient observer, it doesn't really exist, it just "may" exist in a variety of forms or locations. when it is observed, then the Probability wave collapses into one of those probabilities, So that means that if there was no sentient observer at the time of the Big Bang, then there could be NO Big Bang, because nothing existed. therefore a sentient being must have existed at the time of the Big Bang to have observed it. Do you know of any type of being that could be other than God? "And God said 'let there be light' and there was."
As to whether God touches others: I had a discussion with a Hindu I worked with. The Hindu religion does state that there is an overall God of creation, Who created everything & nothing exists that he didn't create. the difference is, the Hindu believe in lesser "Gods", beings of great power who can effect us. The Jewish/Christian faith also recognizes these beings existence but do not accept them as "Gods". They are "Angels/Demons" depending on their nature. As I pointed out to him, anything that can be created, can be destroyed and is therefore (by definition) not a "God". Just because a creature is powerful doesn't make it a "God". You can step on an ant and squish it, even without ever noticing it existed in the first place (probably have). That doesn't make you a "God".

Actually, it requires a lot less belief to not believe in god. Occams Razor applies here. we know how the universe started (big bang), we know how iut grew, and how long that took, (inflation over 13 billion years), we have mathmatics that describe our universe, independent of the presence, or absence of any creator. Therefore, it is more likely that there is no creator, absent equal proof that he exists, as this would require an increase in the complexity of the description and observation system. Also, an interesting fact about truth vs belief: belief in it or not, the truth is still the truth.

PeterZ wrote:Believing there is no God requires as much faith as belief in God. Prove the universe was created by anything other that a Creator. You cannot. So believing that assertion requires faith not logic. There might be sufficient evidence for one to support that faith. The same can be said about the religious. Absent proof believing in something requires faith.

Daryl wrote:Note to The E. When someone believes so strongly in the existence of their own particular invisible friend, no amount of logic will shake that belief.

People insist on logical evidence in order to trust all aspects of their lives, except religion. Going to a doctor you need to know that they are qualified, you only fly with trained pilots, engaging a builder or architect to build your home, in all cases you need verifiable proof. In religion if you are that kind of person who just knows, no amount of logic or lack of evidence matters. I envy them in a way as they know they will live for ever, where as (like Dylan Thomas) I will rage against the failing of the light.