Electrical Devices on Safehold

Both of you guys have valid points...

I've wondered if Merlin couldn't test the reaction to electricity by the OBS out on some isolated islands like he did steam.

The trouble with that is that the level of probability is several levels higher that he would wake something up and that something would look around at everything else that is going on...

Don

n7axw wrote:Both of you guys have valid points...

I've wondered if Merlin couldn't test the reaction to electricity by the OBS out on some isolated islands like he did steam.

The trouble with that is that the level of probability is several levels higher that he would wake something up and that something would look around at everything else that is going on...

Don

It's possible he could. However, Merlin has already ruled it out. He won't risk it.

phillies wrote:Readers should recall that the hypothesized OBS system has not been used since the tail end of the War of the Fallen, and there is absolutely no evidence that anything other that the defense system is functional. The Inner Circle may be hiding from their own imagination.

Apart from that "Rakurai" strike on a certain religious order about 80 years after the Superior of the Order had (as a young adult) known a certain Seijin.

After THAT it would appear not to have been used.

OBS is not the only reason for avoidance of electrical devices.

The problem here is that, while everything made so far is within Proscriptions (steam power being an edge case that father Paityr managed to explain away), there is an explicit prohibition in Proscriptions against using electricity.

And if you want to introduce electricity, you have to explain to everyone how to make it, how it works, there is no way to hide it, not if you want it in industrial quantities.

So, you would have to tell to a large number of people - most likely, to the entire population - that Proscriptions are wrong.

And that opens the whole can of worms. While Merlin, Cayleb & Co, do plan to do that eventually, they want to prepare the people for that moment. Even when everything is prepared, chances are that such revelations will cause... anything from heavy problems to an outright world war. And if it's done while the COGA is still a significant factor, it would play into COGA's hands. Charis doesn't need two problems at the same time.

So, they're trying to resolve everything within limits of Proscriptions if at all possible. When the Temple is not a factor, and when as much of Safehold's population has a... more flexible philosophy, then it might be the time for that.

And, of course, there's the OBS too.

In fact, I'm wondering how will they introduce any sort of serious chemistry - you can't explain it without atoms and their component parts (protons, neutrons and electrons), and with electrons you have electricity.

Aethor wrote:
In fact, I'm wondering how will they introduce any sort of serious chemistry - you can't explain it without atoms and their component parts (protons, neutrons and electrons), and with electrons you have electricity.

For now you restrict the theory to the Royal College. The fruits of the college's labor is explained by explanations that are as traditional as possible.

Don

Aethor wrote:In fact, I'm wondering how will they introduce any sort of serious chemistry - you can't explain it without atoms and their component parts (protons, neutrons and electrons), and with electrons you have electricity.

You can do a lot of chemistry with only a crude atomic theory. There is no need to include electrons or electricity in the theory. Elements, atomic weights, and chemical compounds were all described by chemical theory almost a hundred years before the electron was discovered.

SWM wrote:

Aethor wrote:In fact, I'm wondering how will they introduce any sort of serious chemistry - you can't explain it without atoms and their component parts (protons, neutrons and electrons), and with electrons you have electricity.

You can do a lot of chemistry with only a crude atomic theory. There is no need to include electrons or electricity in the theory. Elements, atomic weights, and chemical compounds were all described by chemical theory almost a hundred years before the electron was discovered.

Yeah. Dr. Lewis has been doing a good bit by exploring "curses" the Writ specifies for unsafe materials, to see which of them can be useful. And that was before she got into the Inner Circle. They can fuss around for a good while without introducing an honest theory. Or they may work up some so-so theories, either as a put-on to explain stuff away (in the case of those in the know) or naturally, as a result of doing science (in the case of those not in the know).

Aethor wrote:In fact, I'm wondering how will they introduce any sort of serious chemistry - you can't explain it without atoms and their component parts (protons, neutrons and electrons), and with electrons you have electricity.

Electricity happens. Rub your feed on a rug and then zap your famliy? That's electricity! And you used it! Have you violated the Proscriptions? I doubt it. Table salt holds together through electrostatic forces (IIRC). If I eat pretzel, have I violated the Proscriptions?

I think the easy thing to do is to not get into electricity in terms of current flowing through a conductor. Avoid the use of the word electron, make up something like negatron, and stay away from current, just use electrostatic forces. I don't think this will slow down chemistry much, except for electrolysis, which means no aluminium and probably no thermite. I think it also means no titanium. This might limit the kinds of steels they can make, I guess.

MTO wrote:

Aethor wrote:In fact, I'm wondering how will they introduce any sort of serious chemistry - you can't explain it without atoms and their component parts (protons, neutrons and electrons), and with electrons you have electricity.

Electricity happens. Rub your feed on a rug and then zap your famliy? That's electricity! And you used it! Have you violated the Proscriptions? I doubt it. Table salt holds together through electrostatic forces (IIRC). If I eat pretzel, have I violated the Proscriptions?

I think the easy thing to do is to not get into electricity in terms of current flowing through a conductor. Avoid the use of the word electron, make up something like negatron, and stay away from current, just use electrostatic forces. I don't think this will slow down chemistry much, except for electrolysis, which means no aluminium and probably no thermite. I think it also means no titanium. This might limit the kinds of steels they can make, I guess.

You don't even need a negatron. Basic chemical theory does not require the concept of electrons.

MTO wrote:Electricity happens. Rub your feed on a rug and then zap your famliy? That's electricity! And you used it! Have you violated the Proscriptions? I doubt it. Table salt holds together through electrostatic forces (IIRC). If I eat pretzel, have I violated the Proscriptions?

No. The pretzel, snack food of Shan-wei, has violated the Proscriptions. And you have punished it appropriately.