Promotion for CWO Harkness

One other note on Honor being made a Colonel of Marines in Field of Dishonor: She made it as Captain(List), but was promoted directly to Captain(List) from her previous rank of Commander at the end of On Basilisk Station, skipping the rank of Captain(Junior Grade).

So it isn't really clear whether or not a Captain(JG) can be made a Colonel of Marines or not. (House of Steel doesn't mention the rank at all.)

It's possible Captain JG could make Colonel of Marines. As per your own quote with the boldeds, the appointment is for "captains too junior for flag rank".

Commodore being the lowest flag rank, and I believe is the next rank up from Captain Senior Grade (aka Captain of the List). So if you were jumped past Captain SG, you'd land on Commodore. Assuming you had sufficient 'time in grade' as a Captain JG to let it stick.

Which was one reason Honor took so long to hit Commodore herself, was her continual jumps for actions in the line of duty. Well that and the Opposition Parties in the form of the Conservatives and Liberals (plus Hauptman, prior to her actions in Silesia) throwing out roadblocks continually.

Somtaaw wrote:

I think also only got the MT for saving enlisted during the power room accident on HMS Manticore.

The Honorverse Wiki entry on the CGM lists Honor Harrington as a recipient for saving crew members from an explosion in HMS Manticore's forward power room. It cites OBS as the source.

It's a Wiki, accept at your own risk, YMMV, etc., etc., etc.

I think that we ought to leave poor old Hoarce in his current rank where he is happy and makes a valuable contribution to the good of the service.

In Beauty and the Beast in commenting on Alfred receiving the Osterman Cross, it is noted the the award to a noncom comes with the offer of a commission, but when the offer is declined, the RMN respects that because it recognizes the value of quality people who serve in those slots.

Don

Harkness as a Colonel of Marines, if it were somehow allowed, could cause all kinds of issues.

1) His wife is a Marine NCO, so there's the Article 119 issue potentially, not to mention potential insubordination charges when she either knocks or talks sense into him.

2) Given his past, would he feel obligated to literally beat himself up on shore leave?

3) The entire RMMC would probably bust a collective gut trying not to snicker every time he walks by and you know every single one of them would go out of their way to say Colonel.

jchilds wrote:Harkness as a Colonel of Marines, if it were somehow allowed, could cause all kinds of issues.

1) His wife is a Marine NCO, so there's the Article 119 issue potentially, not to mention potential insubordination charges when she either knocks or talks sense into him.

2) Given his past, would he feel obligated to literally beat himself up on shore leave?

3) The entire RMMC would probably bust a collective gut trying not to snicker every time he walks by and you know every single one of them would go out of their way to say Colonel.

@ 2 & 3.

Article 119 only applies to personnel in the same chain of command. As long as they are on different ships, there isn't a problem and may not even be one if they are on the same vessel, as Harkness would be under the Tac/EW department chain of command, whilst Babcock would be under the Marine chain of command.

119 did not apply to Paul Tankersley and Honor Harrington, because their chains of command were separate even if they both converged at Yancey Parks. Honor's chain went herself-Sarnow-Parks whilst Paul went himself-unnamed Hancock yard dog CO-Parks.

As long as X's command of chain doesn't contain Y or vice versa, Article 119 doesn't apply. The agitating over Hamish and Honor's relationship was because the First Lord technically stands at the top of every single chain of command in the RMN, blocking reassignment as an option - but they decided as a civilian role, it didn't count.

The only way for Babcock and Harkness to be in the same chain would be if Harkness was promoted to Captain(as he would have to be for Colonel of Marines anyway) and Babcock was assigned to that ship's marine detachment.

munroburton wrote:

jchilds wrote:Harkness as a Colonel of Marines, if it were somehow allowed, could cause all kinds of issues.

1) His wife is a Marine NCO, so there's the Article 119 issue potentially, not to mention potential insubordination charges when she either knocks or talks sense into him.

2) Given his past, would he feel obligated to literally beat himself up on shore leave?

3) The entire RMMC would probably bust a collective gut trying not to snicker every time he walks by and you know every single one of them would go out of their way to say Colonel.

@ 2 & 3.

Article 119 only applies to personnel in the same chain of command. As long as they are on different ships, there isn't a problem and may not even be one if they are on the same vessel, as Harkness would be under the Tac/EW department chain of command, whilst Babcock would be under the Marine chain of command.

119 did not apply to Paul Tankersley and Honor Harrington, because their chains of command were separate even if they both converged at Yancey Parks. Honor's chain went herself-Sarnow-Parks whilst Paul went himself-unnamed Hancock yard dog CO-Parks.

As long as X's command of chain doesn't contain Y or vice versa, Article 119 doesn't apply. The agitating over Hamish and Honor's relationship was because the First Lord technically stands at the top of every single chain of command in the RMN, blocking reassignment as an option - but they decided as a civilian role, it didn't count.

The only way for Babcock and Harkness to be in the same chain would be if Harkness was promoted to Captain(as he would have to be for Colonel of Marines anyway) and Babcock was assigned to that ship's marine detachment.

Article 119 is chain of command though, and the Colonel of Marines is merely an appointment. Honor gets paid as a Colonel in the Marines, but has exactly zero authority to command them (directly).

So point 1 is something we could disregard in entirety.

Points 2 Harkness did reform after first encountering Scotty, and then marrying Babcock. So I don't think he'd beat himself up every shoreleave. On the other hand, BuPers also tries to avoid giving him any temptations to break that reformation; so this point may have some validity.

Point 3, is the most amusing of all. The best bits would be any survivors who have served with Harkness while on one of Honor's ships. So Hibson, Ramirez.... erm, memory fails after those two.

Actually thinking about it, Honor is really rough on her poor Marine contingents. Other than when she was at Basilisk, I think every ship she's skippered into battle gets their Marines massacred.

HMS Fearless, Heavy Cruiser at Yeltsin - shot to crap, heavy casualties
HMS Nike, Battlecruiser at Hancock - shot to crap, heavy casualties
HMAMC Wayfarer, in Silesia - shot to crap, around 70% casualties (estimated)

Somtaaw wrote:Actually thinking about it, Honor is really rough on her poor Marine contingents. Other than when she was at Basilisk, I think every ship she's skippered into battle gets their Marines massacred.

HMS Fearless, Heavy Cruiser at Yeltsin - shot to crap, heavy casualties
HMS Nike, Battlecruiser at Hancock - shot to crap, heavy casualties
HMAMC Wayfarer, in Silesia - shot to crap, around 70% casualties (estimated)

It's not just the Marines - the whole crew tends to suffer a lot of death. The Marines at Basilisk were "lucky" that they were instead dealing with ten thousand drug- and religion-maddened Medusans; aboard ship, they'd've been killed and maimed a lot.

I've not read In Fire Forged yet (dagnubbit), so I can't speak to the casualty rate of the Marines on Hawkwing.

Hawkwing is an old destroyer. barely able to hold a platoon of Marines so any casualties are going to have a disproportionate value.

IIRC Wayfarer evacuated over half the crew before the final battle. Some Marines were wounded before hand.