Sharonian Aircraft?

You're overlooking two issues. First it requires some technological understanding to deconstruct the Sharonian weapons. Even highly educated Arcanans struggle to comprehend how firearms work. I think it'll be a while before scholars determine how a gun works and how to replicate the parts. Even then there's no manufacturing sector, though magic could solve the problem. There's also the issue in determining the chemical makeup and production of gunpowder, though again magic could be used as a substitute perhaps - imagine an exploding fireball containing bullet\shell. The second issue is will technological weapons be welcome in Arcana? It's been many years since I read the books so I should re-read them but won't the "African Facists" be opposed to anything which changes the balance of power with "Roman Europe" and the "Democratic Chinas"? They're already deliberately sabotaging the war effort whilst using it to weaken their "allies". Of course this assume that technology works at all. Is it a constant or will it weaken like Sharonian gifts used in Arcanan territory? Still a lot of things to be defined by the authors.

cwood92 wrote:Personally I think the big question should be how long before the Arcanian's can devolop comparable firearms to the Sharonian's. I would think the first batches of captured Sharonian weapons would be arriving at some forward R&D bases quite soon if they haven't already. Firearms are also a very simple concept to mimic one you know the components, i.e. a barrel, projectile, and some sort of propellant(contained fireball spell). A heavy transport Dragon able to rapidly redeploy long range heavy artillery could be a serious threat, not to mention battle dragons with the addition of machine gun turrets would outclass any aircraft Sharona could develop in the near future.

I absolutely agree that how long it will take the Arcanans to develop comparable firearms to the Sharonians is a very very important question. But I don't think we can even make educated guesses at that. I see two big areas where we can't even guess at this time.

1) How advanced is Arcanan materials technology? They don't have a word for "chemical." If it is as poor as that implies they may be unable to duplicate Sharonan weapons without centuries of R&D.

2) How much power does their Arcane technology provide them? The long hovering slider cars & dragon pods, which can carry aprox. 50 tons, implies quite a bit. The low penetration of the infantry dragons implies not very much. That will matter because substituting arcane power for gunpowder will only work if they can generate enough arcane power.

The opposite question also applies, how long will it take Sharona to start duplicating Arcane technology? The healers who treated 100 Thalmayr were convinced he was talented. They ought to know. If he is talented it implies there are also gifted Sharonans so the possibility exists. But it is impossible to guess because of how much we just don't know.

Nicholas

cwood92 wrote:Personally I think the big question should be how long before the Arcanian's can devolop comparable firearms to the Sharonian's. I would think the first batches of captured Sharonian weapons would be arriving at some forward R&D bases quite soon if they haven't already. Firearms are also a very simple concept to mimic one you know the components, i.e. a barrel, projectile, and some sort of propellant(contained fireball spell). A heavy transport Dragon able to rapidly redeploy long range heavy artillery could be a serious threat, not to mention battle dragons with the addition of machine gun turrets would outclass any aircraft Sharona could develop in the near future.

Bewildered wrote:You're overlooking two issues. First it requires some technological understanding to deconstruct the Sharonian weapons. Even highly educated Arcanans struggle to comprehend how firearms work. I think it'll be a while before scholars determine how a gun works and how to replicate the parts. Even then there's no manufacturing sector, though magic could solve the problem. There's also the issue in determining the chemical makeup and production of gunpowder, though again magic could be used as a substitute perhaps - imagine an exploding fireball containing bullet\shell. The second issue is will technological weapons be welcome in Arcana? It's been many years since I read the books so I should re-read them but won't the "African Facists" be opposed to anything which changes the balance of power with "Roman Europe" and the "Democratic Chinas"? They're already deliberately sabotaging the war effort whilst using it to weaken their "allies". Of course this assume that technology works at all. Is it a constant or will it weaken like Sharonian gifts used in Arcanan territory? Still a lot of things to be defined by the authors.

I may be over estimating their rate of development but I still think that at least rudimentary firearms could be developed in relativaly short order using something similar to a contained fireball spell as propellant. If I remeber correctly in HG the Arcanian who found the first contact scene deduced the mechanics of the weapon that killed his man rather quickly. The biggest issue I see for them is in the high precision needed to manufature firearms and that is something we haven't seen so we can't really speculate on, but I would think early to mid 19th century weapons would be easily within their capabilities in the very near future.

As for the issue of Mythalans (?) accepting technology based weapons (or magic equivalents), they won't really have a choice. Right now Arcana doesn't have infantry weapons that even come close to their Sharona counterparts. If Arcana wants it's military to compete over the long haul against Sharonan forces, they must have weapons that are within shouting distance of their opponents.

While Arcana does have other advantages they could use to help offset that deficiency without effective small arms, and artillery capable of breaching Sharona armor and bunkers, they remain at a severe disadvantage.

As for a suitable weapon design, I couldn't guess how long it would take Arcana to make. Probably less time if they want to use magic as the propulsion power, more if they have to figure lots of chemistry to make gunpowder. Then their is the question of steel manufacturing in Arcana, how much can they make at one time, how expensive is it. Remember their military ship was made of wood, not metal.

Astelon wrote:As for the issue of Mythalans (?) accepting technology based weapons (or magic equivalents), they won't really have a choice. Right now Arcana doesn't have infantry weapons that even come close to their Sharona counterparts. If Arcana wants it's military to compete over the long haul against Sharonan forces, they must have weapons that are within shouting distance of their opponents.

While Arcana does have other advantages they could use to help offset that deficiency without effective small arms, and artillery capable of breaching Sharona armor and bunkers, they remain at a severe disadvantage.

As for a suitable weapon design, I couldn't guess how long it would take Arcana to make. Probably less time if they want to use magic as the propulsion power, more if they have to figure lots of chemistry to make gunpowder. Then their is the question of steel manufacturing in Arcana, how much can they make at one time, how expensive is it. Remember their military ship was made of wood, not metal.

I agree steel production and accuracy of machine works are going to be the limiting factors for the Arcanans, but we haven't seen those industries so we can only speculate.

cwood92 wrote:

Astelon wrote:As for the issue of Mythalans (?) accepting technology based weapons (or magic equivalents), they won't really have a choice. Right now Arcana doesn't have infantry weapons that even come close to their Sharona counterparts. If Arcana wants it's military to compete over the long haul against Sharonan forces, they must have weapons that are within shouting distance of their opponents.

While Arcana does have other advantages they could use to help offset that deficiency without effective small arms, and artillery capable of breaching Sharona armor and bunkers, they remain at a severe disadvantage.

As for a suitable weapon design, I couldn't guess how long it would take Arcana to make. Probably less time if they want to use magic as the propulsion power, more if they have to figure lots of chemistry to make gunpowder. Then their is the question of steel manufacturing in Arcana, how much can they make at one time, how expensive is it. Remember their military ship was made of wood, not metal.

I agree steel production and accuracy of machine works are going to be the limiting factors for the Arcanans, but we haven't seen those industries so we can only speculate.

And making the shell/bullet casings as well as the gunpowder and percussion caps to set it off. Making gunpowder alone is very difficult if you have no idea what you're doing. I foresee a LOT of mistakes happening: explosions caused by sparks, some idiot smoking where he shouldn't be or just friction caused by turning the powder. Then you have to be able to keep the powder dry and the biggest problem for the Arcanans, transporting it the many tens of -thousands- of miles from Arcana to the front lines (and getting the soldiers trained to use the weapons).

One of the biggest problems for the Arcana military is the dragons. It takes how many years to breed and grow and train one battle dragon? If/when the Sharonans figure out how to make/build airplanes, even WWI types, the Arcanan air force is going to be wiped out. Sharona can replace planes and pilots a lot faster than Arcana can grow and train new battle dragons and pilots to fly them.

I don't see them trying to develop guns when they have magic. They'll just go on researching better magical weapons. So long as the magic is working, I think they'll stay with what they know and understand.

jeremyr wrote:I don't see them trying to develop guns when they have magic. They'll just go on researching better magical weapons. So long as the magic is working, I think they'll stay with what they know and understand.

At least until they realize (at the front lines) that their magic is becoming increasingly less effective. I think it will take a lot of proof to get the ones back in Arcana to realize this, and the Mythal(?) mage people will have a -very- hard time believing that their magic isn't very effective the farther away they get from the Arcana settled universes.

Umm...this is not correct.

Astelon wrote:
One of the biggest problems for the Arcana military is the dragons. It takes how many years to breed and grow and train one battle dragon? If/when the Sharonans figure out how to make/build airplanes, even WWI types, the Arcanan air force is going to be wiped out. Sharona can replace planes and pilots a lot faster than Arcana can grow and train new battle dragons and pilots to fly them.

People who keep talking about Sharona's sniping at _dragons_ or talking about dragon losses are unclear on the concept of airpower.

The specific mage talent that is required to pilot dragons runs in families.

See Hell Hath No Fury.

Pilots are always more important than their mounts in terms of air power combat capability.

The small Arcanian breeding program for dragons is matched by a much smaller pilot recruitment and training establishment.

An establishment, given the nature of the Arcanian military build down, that is likely riddled with built in decisions of political/familial favoritism over combat capability.

IOW, the Arcanian military dragon pilot program is a great deal like the Japanese pilot training program at the beginning of WW2. They are not in a position to ramp up pilot training any more than they are to breed dragons quickly.

Sharonans should priority snipe at the _pilots_, not the dragons.

And further note, fragmentation from explosive shells that wounds dragons will kill their pilots. The first air mobile operation caught under a impact pattern of a Sharonan timed fragmentation shell barrage is going to see more dead pilots than wounded dragons.

That is very bad news for the Arcanian Infantry or cavalry riding on or near Battle Dragon-Transport Dragon crosses.

Those dragons will strike out in pain at anything near them without pilots to calm them (not with breath weapons, which are spell locked, but 40-50 tons of enraged/hurt Transport-Battle Dragon cross is bad enough right there).

So we are going to see more dead Dragon pilots soon that dead/wounded dragons.

Why are people even talking about sniping aircraft? Massed soldiers firing at aircraft in WW1 had trouble hitting planes. Sure a sniper is an expert but one bullet to hit a target rapidly moving in 3 dimensions? Please! Unless the snipers are Sharonian gifted they won't hit anything!

Also, what if some bright spark creates spellware that either shields against bullets, or redirects them? Other series by other authors definitely have projectile defences. Of course until the Arcanan "boffins" get involved it's unlikely such defences\countermeasures will be created but it's reasonable to think something might be possible eventually.

Assuming the military establishment is anything like that proposed by DW in Mutineer's Moon then it'll be professionalism not cronyism that rules.

I guess I'm not a Sharonian supremacist.

And of course we've no idea the direction DW plans on taking this series!

Mil-tech bard wrote:Umm...this is not correct.

Astelon wrote:
One of the biggest problems for the Arcana military is the dragons. It takes how many years to breed and grow and train one battle dragon? If/when the Sharonans figure out how to make/build airplanes, even WWI types, the Arcanan air force is going to be wiped out. Sharona can replace planes and pilots a lot faster than Arcana can grow and train new battle dragons and pilots to fly them.

People who keep talking about Sharona's sniping at _dragons_ or talking about dragon losses are unclear on the concept of airpower.

The specific mage talent that is required to pilot dragons runs in families.

See Hell Hath No Fury.

Pilots are always more important than their mounts in terms of air power combat capability.

The small Arcanian breeding program for dragons is matched by a much smaller pilot recruitment and training establishment.

An establishment, given the nature of the Arcanian military build down, that is likely riddled with built in decisions of political/familial favoritism over combat capability.

IOW, the Arcanian military dragon pilot program is a great deal like the Japanese pilot training program at the beginning of WW2. They are not in a position to ramp up pilot training any more than they are to breed dragons quickly.

Sharonans should priority snipe at the _pilots_, not the dragons.

And further note, fragmentation from explosive shells that wounds dragons will kill their pilots. The first air mobile operation caught under a impact pattern of a Sharonan timed fragmentation shell barrage is going to see more dead pilots than wounded dragons.

That is very bad news for the Arcanian Infantry or cavalry riding on or near Battle Dragon-Transport Dragon crosses.

Those dragons will strike out in pain at anything near them without pilots to calm them (not with breath weapons, which are spell locked, but 40-50 tons of enraged/hurt Transport-Battle Dragon cross is bad enough right there).

So we are going to see more dead Dragon pilots soon that dead/wounded dragons.