[spoilers]What happens when Shannon Foraker meets...

I'm definately with you here. Just waiting to see definitive information on how badly Grayson was really hurt during OB. I keep thinking that the APOLLO factory that had only recently been delivered by the SEM hadn't been set up yet so the OB scouts hadn't spotted and targetted it. IF so, the the Grand Alliance has a significant missile produciton on line much sooner than we think.

I'm also thinking of Grayson innovation on the Katana. If they were perceptive enough to foresee the need for a space superiority fighter, may be they will foresee the need for LACs that are true SD killers unsupported. Imagine a LAC that launches a single drive version of the Mk-16G? Better yet, imagine such tech applied to a counterpart to Anton Zilwicki's frigate.

waddles for desert wrote:Yeah, yeah, yeah; you have to give Hemphill her due; la cream de la tech weenie

And, yeah, yeah, yeah; everybody loves Shannon; the tactical officer gone McGyver.

But, there are some other folks around, you know. Folks known for boot strapping solutions too primitive to occur to snooty Manties, and folks with a tech base superior to what the Republicans have in place. I am not going to bet that the Graysons come up with the solution, but I wouldn't bet against it. And, I probably would bet that they get it deployed fleet wide first.

Been a while since I visited, forum has been busy.

Interesting concept Namelessfly, but I think DW has stated that he didn't want to overturn the balance of space warfare by making LACs the primary force/focus ala the Stars at War trilogy.

LACs are very good for their cost/ratio, but they still aren't allowed (or shouldn't be at least) to take down SDs by themselves, even SLN ones. I like the way LACs are now without them being "buffed" any further.

In any case returning to the OP, it's obvious that Hemphill and Foraker both have their strength and weaknesses, but combining them would be a simple case of the whole being more than the sum of its parts. I definitely like the red/blue team concept where ideas are bounced off each other to combine doctrine and design philosophies with the combined resources of both the RoH and SEM.

Inevitably, there will be some sort of sonar/asdic counter to spider drive, but it's hard to think of something completely radically new that wouldn't be based on already developed tech (How Ghost Rider came about only because the new fusion plants allowed all the power requirements for the new goodies).

Most units now have bow/stern sidewalls, most that have the mass (BC+) have Keyhole or Keyhole-2, there's already Dragon's Teeth and Dazzlers. I just personally can't think of anything entirely new that wouldn't just be an upgraded version of something we've seen already; Although I'm always ready to be surprised.

Any chance of a Foraker vs Hemphill romance?

Weber hasn't made any comments that I can recall about their orientations so they might both be lesbians. It would certainly be an interesting plot twist. Given the tasteful way Weber handles hetereo sexual relationships, I don't think he'd have any scenes that would offend moral conservatives such as myself. The worst I'd expect is Weber describing a scene similar to Honor Harrington and Paul Tankersley in which Hemphil wakes up to discover that Foraker is holding her breast.

Willz wrote:Been a while since I visited, forum has been busy.

I hear that. I've only been on the forum a week, miss 3 days and there's a lot to catch up on...

Willz wrote:Interesting concept Namelessfly, but I think DW has stated that he didn't want to overturn the balance of space warfare by making LACs the primary force/focus ala the Stars at War trilogy... I just personally can't think of anything entirely new that wouldn't just be an upgraded version of something we've seen already; Although I'm always ready to be surprised.

I suppose the best way to look at it is in terms of the problems they face.

We should probably take it as a given that the relative power ratios of different unit sizes will not change. The overall structure of the navies will not either, although having apollo-SDP's is the peak of conventional warfare, those units will be limited for some time in their availability and thus their strategic usefulness.

Somebody mentioned the Grayson Factor - and I think that's extremely relevant. What we will probably be seeing is not massive increases in quality of units, but perhaps instead in the way those technologies already in existence are used and deployed. A good answer to my original question therefore would probably be some form of marriage between 'off the shelf' manticoran tech with the relative industrial might of the RH and the scale of the RHN.

We've already seen - and I hate justifying Godwin's Law here - the Manticoran military philosophy flow in a qualitative direction rather than quantitative, as with Germany in WWII. Haven's greater size of navy and potential production was churning out the honorverse equivalent of 4 shermans to the SKM's 1 panther, although due to a lack of a strategic-bombing allegory, that panther won through.

So now the GA's perspective should perhaps be similar to British engineering of the WWII era - cheap, effective, easily producible solutions to the problems faced, like the De Havilland Mosquito to name but one. That's where Shannon (and the graysons) will prove extremely useful.

Is there any Manty advances that might be easily passed on to the Republic, then mass-produced in such a way as to give the GA sufficient capability to keep the SLN off their backs?

I haven't read a significant amount about current RHN tech, but do they have an equivalent of Keyhole? Maybe Keyhole I deployed on RHN SDP's will be a significant leap.

Perhaps a refit of captured SLN SD's with many more control links - in place of all that empty space and massive crew - and then Keyhole I platforms in place of the Halo system, with ammo-ships carrying RHN MDM's in accompaniment, will provide a very effective system-defence fleet? It's got nothing on Apollo, but it's still 30 years or so ahead of the SLN.

And Namelessfly - I wouldn't get your hopes up on the romance front. There's only so much fanservice even DW can stomach :)

The RHN doesn't have anything like Keyhole.

What they do have is a million and six countermissile launchers, crammed onto every available surface (and to the maximum level in their LACS) plus a doctrine that lets them launch three waves of CM's vs a MDM attack, although one wave isn't very accurate.

This worked pretty well until Apollo came out.

The Havenites are just as uninterested in SLN SD hulls as the SEM is. The Havenites already HAVE a reserve of a scores of SD's that were mothballed as they brought SD(P)'s online. Those SD(P)'s already have modern numbers of control links, countermissiles, etc plus, modern EW (for Haven) and of course are 100% compatable with Haven's industrial sector. They're mothballed because they're useless deathtraps against enemies with podlayers, and they don't have trained manpower at the moment to man them.

Should they decide a SD fleet is useful vs the SLN, they'll recruit troops for their own SD's before they'd bother with Crandall's cast-offs.

This is equally true of the Andermani. It is possible Greyson and SKM burned through their SD reserve in the followups to Thunderbolt, 2nd Zanzibar and Battle of Manticore. What SD's they have left are probably part of the Marsh fleet in Silesia or loaned out/gifted to minor allies such as Alison because even if SKM/Greyson have mothballed SD's still in inventory, they don't have the manpower to fly them.

solbergb wrote:This is equally true of the Andermani. It is possible Greyson and SKM burned through their SD reserve in the followups to Thunderbolt, 2nd Zanzibar and Battle of Manticore.

Not really.
What happened to RMN/GSN SD reserves is acutally a great mystery.
Weber dropped them completely somewhere between Thunderbolt and Beatrix.
Based on Webers Fleet strengths as of early 1920PD the RMN and GSN had 315 old style SDs either in commission or in the reserves between them.
And at least the RMN tried to activate the reserves asap.

However, Weber never told us what did happen to those Wallers.

Back in the early days of the Second Havanite War, 50 or so were deployed with Third Fleet. They vanished before Beatrix since Third Fleet had only SD(P)s at Manticore.
There were another 48 SDs in Home Fleet and some 8 SDs were lost in Thunderbolt if you believe Theisman.
Thats it, we dont have more information about the old Wallers.

Some explanations i came up with:

Some old Wallers are deployed in Silesia as Depot Ships / System Defense / Flagships (think HMS Hercules in Talbott)
Say 12


Some could be stationed all over the settled Galaxy as Merchant Marine Support Ships before the War broke out.
Say 6

Would do well with High Ridges military policy.
A very large numbers of old Stylers could be in the yards of overhaul und upgrades.
Say 48

A certain number could be in use as training ships for inexperienced merchant crews.
Say 18

Maybe they had to decommission a number of old Wallers to get the manpower for the new LAC units and SD(P)s.
Say 30

Dont forget Grayson Home Fleet. Its very likely that the GSN has a strong force stationed at Home against any threat.
Say 30.

Same goes for the IAN. I dont think that the Andermani will show up with old SDs in an SD(P) fight.
Thats 193 active IAN SDs at Home.


Then, very important, the reinforcements of the other Alliance worlds everyone around Honor was bitching about in At All Costs. Zanzibar, Alizon, Yorik etc. sucked up a number of BatRons. Its highly likely the Admiralty did sent old Stylers when ever possible.
Say another 30.

If you add it all up (dont forget Manti Home Fleet) you have 368 SDs squared away.
All in all the Alliance has 348 SDs active and 190 in reserves in 1920.
So you can explain it to some extend but in the end there are still many, many SDs available to the Alliance.
At least if Oyster Bay didnt target them as well. Which i think is highly likely.
Anyway, I think we won’t read anything about the old Wallers in the books anymore.

Star Knight wrote:...snip...

A certain number could be in use as training ships for inexperienced merchant crews.
Say 18

...snip...

One nit with this is the crews of 150 or so merchant transports to man one old style RMN SD. 40 or so crew for the merchant and 6,000 or so for the SD. So the 18 you postulate would be able to train 2,700 merchant ship's companies. Maybe only 1,300 if only half the crew is regulars. Still a huge number. Not outside the realm of probability but it is approaching it. Even assuming the manning of a passenger transport it would still require around 6 of them for one old style SD.

T2M

Doesnt have to be merchant mariners.
With prolong there should be a great number of people who were in the military once and are still capable of serving.
They need training programs for those guys.

thinkstoomuch wrote:

Star Knight wrote:...snip...

A certain number could be in use as training ships for inexperienced merchant crews.
Say 18

...snip...

One nit with this is the crews of 150 or so merchant transports to man one old style RMN SD. 40 or so crew for the merchant and 6,000 or so for the SD. So the 18 you postulate would be able to train 2,700 merchant ship's companies. Maybe only 1,300 if only half the crew is regulars. Still a huge number. Not outside the realm of probability but it is approaching it. Even assuming the manning of a passenger transport it would still require around 6 of them for one old style SD.

T2M

A Foraker Hemphil romance wouldn't be Fanservice to me.

What I want to see is a cat fight between Honor Harrington and Thandi Palane.

Or a scene where Abby Hearnes and Mateo finally become an item and have to cope with the physilogy issues.

Cap'n Roderick wrote:

Willz wrote:Been a while since I visited, forum has been busy.

I hear that. I've only been on the forum a week, miss 3 days and there's a lot to catch up on...

Willz wrote:Interesting concept Namelessfly, but I think DW has stated that he didn't want to overturn the balance of space warfare by making LACs the primary force/focus ala the Stars at War trilogy... I just personally can't think of anything entirely new that wouldn't just be an upgraded version of something we've seen already; Although I'm always ready to be surprised.

I suppose the best way to look at it is in terms of the problems they face.

We should probably take it as a given that the relative power ratios of different unit sizes will not change. The overall structure of the navies will not either, although having apollo-SDP's is the peak of conventional warfare, those units will be limited for some time in their availability and thus their strategic usefulness.

Somebody mentioned the Grayson Factor - and I think that's extremely relevant. What we will probably be seeing is not massive increases in quality of units, but perhaps instead in the way those technologies already in existence are used and deployed. A good answer to my original question therefore would probably be some form of marriage between 'off the shelf' manticoran tech with the relative industrial might of the RH and the scale of the RHN.

We've already seen - and I hate justifying Godwin's Law here - the Manticoran military philosophy flow in a qualitative direction rather than quantitative, as with Germany in WWII. Haven's greater size of navy and potential production was churning out the honorverse equivalent of 4 shermans to the SKM's 1 panther, although due to a lack of a strategic-bombing allegory, that panther won through.

So now the GA's perspective should perhaps be similar to British engineering of the WWII era - cheap, effective, easily producible solutions to the problems faced, like the De Havilland Mosquito to name but one. That's where Shannon (and the graysons) will prove extremely useful.

Is there any Manty advances that might be easily passed on to the Republic, then mass-produced in such a way as to give the GA sufficient capability to keep the SLN off their backs?

I haven't read a significant amount about current RHN tech, but do they have an equivalent of Keyhole? Maybe Keyhole I deployed on RHN SDP's will be a significant leap.

Perhaps a refit of captured SLN SD's with many more control links - in place of all that empty space and massive crew - and then Keyhole I platforms in place of the Halo system, with ammo-ships carrying RHN MDM's in accompaniment, will provide a very effective system-defence fleet? It's got nothing on Apollo, but it's still 30 years or so ahead of the SLN.

And Namelessfly - I wouldn't get your hopes up on the romance front. There's only so much fanservice even DW can stomach :)

namelessfly wrote:A Foraker Hemphil romance wouldn't be Fanservice to me.

What I want to see is a cat fight between Honor Harrington and Thandi Palane.

Won't happen, except maybe a friendly spar.

But it would be very interesting to see that sparring contest. I think Thandi and Honor both would be interested in the challenge. Thandi has the natural strength and speed advantage, I'm sure, but Honor has been doing Coup for a very long time. I don't remember Thandi's age, but I'm pretty sure she's less than half Honor's age.

I can't remember what, if any, martial art Thandi was stated to use, but if she hasn't seen the coup yet, I strongly suspect that she will like it.

My guess would be 2/3 falls to Honor until Thandi learns how Honor fights. Then slowly reverse that as Thandi learns the coup (or learns the best ways to counter it)and gets a few more years of training in.