Zion's food supply

n7axw wrote:My impression is that Zion is not fortified. After all, prior to the current furbar, who would have dared attack the place....

So whether by land or by sea, all the allies really have to do is to defeat the Temple armies and move into Zion proper. That doesn't necessarily provide them with access to the Temple, but occupying Zion can be done without a siege.

As for food, my impression is that most of Zion's supply happens by land, probably either by way of the canals or by those good roads that the Havens are known for. I think that most of it originates in the Temple Lands.

My guess for Zion's population is about 2 million. I could stand to be corrected on that figure.

Don

I would think that Lake Pei is an excellent way to transport gods the last leg from a large uptake area without clogging up the canals/roads near Zion. Also, my guess is that most bulk cargo is transported through the passage when it's ice-free.

Joat42 wrote:

n7axw wrote:My impression is that Zion is not fortified. After all, prior to the current furbar, who would have dared attack the place....

So whether by land or by sea, all the allies really have to do is to defeat the Temple armies and move into Zion proper. That doesn't necessarily provide them with access to the Temple, but occupying Zion can be done without a siege.

As for food, my impression is that most of Zion's supply happens by land, probably either by way of the canals or by those good roads that the Havens are known for. I think that most of it originates in the Temple Lands.

My guess for Zion's population is about 2 million. I could stand to be corrected on that figure.

Don

I would think that Lake Pei is an excellent way to transport goods the last leg from a large uptake area without clogging up the canals/roads near Zion. Also, my guess is that most bulk cargo is transported through the passage when it's ice-free.

My thought is that if you are talking food and other perishables, It probably comes up the canals and roads from the interior of the continent. The Temple Lands including Zion are mostly landlocked with only one port that gives them access to the sea up through the passage.

Just looking at a map, the passage is the long way around to almost everywhere. I can see non-perishable bulk goods being shipped that way during the months when it is ice free. Zion would be a net importer of almost everything. In fact, about the only thing I can remember that they make for export is whiskey. Mostly they collect their tithes and use the proceeds to bring in what they deem important for their life styles. Otherwise their economy is mostly a service economy geared toward the wealthy and the powerful.

Don

n7axw wrote:Just looking at a map, the passage is the long way around to almost everywhere. I can see non-perishable bulk goods being shipped that way during the months when it is ice free. Zion would be a net importer of almost everything. In fact, about the only thing I can remember that they make for export is whiskey. Mostly they collect their tithes and use the proceeds to bring in what they deem important for their life styles. Otherwise their economy is mostly a service economy geared toward the wealthy and the powerful.

Zion is also home to a lot of publishers and printers making (among other things) particularly ornate copies of the Holy Writ (and most likely similar holy items) as well as rugs and textiles.

Zor

Say they have ice breakers, that allow them to go after zion in winter. THey then bomb their warehouses, i wonder how much of hteir food is there. even if only a portion of food is destroyed. Enough to stree the food situation in zion, to create a charged situation.

SYED wrote:Say they have ice breakers, that allow them to go after zion in winter. THey then bomb their warehouses, i wonder how much of hteir food is there. even if only a portion of food is destroyed. Enough to stree the food situation in zion, to create a charged situation.

Were I planning it, I would just move in with the Haarahds escorting the troop transports, land the troops, march through Zion and surround the Temple and invite its occupants to surrender. And I'd do it under the bright summer sun. To heck with trying to starve the city. The overwhelming majority of its people are innocent bystanders. If anything, I'd make sure to bring lots of food that could be used in a hearts and minds campaign.

Don

n7axw wrote:My impression is that Zion is not fortified. After all, prior to the current furbar, who would have dared attack the place....

So whether by land or by sea, all the allies really have to do is to defeat the Temple armies and move into Zion proper. That doesn't necessarily provide them with access to the Temple, but occupying Zion can be done without a siege.

As for food, my impression is that most of Zion's supply happens by land, probably either by way of the canals or by those good roads that the Havens are known for. I think that most of it originates in the Temple Lands.

My guess for Zion's population is about 2 million. I could stand to be corrected on that figure.

Don

Actually, a great deal of Zion's food is shipped across Lake Pei, and there's an extensive network of canals in the Temple Lands that connect to the surrounding countries that haven't appeared on the map yet. So even before the ICN basically swept the seas free of enemy shipping except for the in Gulf of Dohlar, Zion was being primarily supplied by canals. I'm sure there's been a noticeable reduction in the amount of food arriving by sea, but the textev makes it clear that almost all of the city's food was shipped via canals that connect to Lake Pei.

Your estimate of 2 million for the population of Zion is likely too high, possibly by a large margin. Let's consider how Tellesberg is described in OAR: "The city's total population was in the vicinity of a hundred thousand, which made it huge for Charis and much more than merely respectable for Safehold generally. It also meant Tellesberg was completely ringed by farmland whose sole purpose was to keep the city's population fed. Even so, it was necessary to import vast quantities of food on a regular basis. The Charisian merchant marine was more than equal to the task, as long as the Royal Charisian Navy maintained control of Howell Bay, but a hundred thousand was still an enormous population for a city built by a civilization powered only by wind, water, and muscle."

Obviously Zion is much larger than Tellesberg, although there are larger cities on Safehold - from OAR: "the city itself—one of the half-dozen largest on all of Safehold, and by far its oldest—existed for only one purpose: to serve the needs of the Church of God Awaiting." I suspect there's a limit to how large a city can be when it exists in a place with a climate so harsh that Langhorne set up his headquarters there as proof of the power of the archangels!

Tellesberg is surrounded by farmland that raises four crops a year and has cutting edge agricultural equipment. Zion can barely manage one crop, it's equipment is inferior, and it lacks the EoC's huge merchant marine. Granted, it has well organized methods of importing food, but the vast majority of that food has to be imported.

I'd guess that Zion has no more than a million inhabitants, although my gut feeling is that it may have as few as 500,000, given the food situation. Besides, if your occupation wasn't dependent on the CoGA, would you even want to live there? Move south and spare yourself the horrible winters! I hear that Silkiah is lovely in February!

McGuiness wrote:

n7axw wrote:My impression is that Zion is not fortified. After all, prior to the current furbar, who would have dared attack the place....

So whether by land or by sea, all the allies really have to do is to defeat the Temple armies and move into Zion proper. That doesn't necessarily provide them with access to the Temple, but occupying Zion can be done without a siege.

As for food, my impression is that most of Zion's supply happens by land, probably either by way of the canals or by those good roads that the Havens are known for. I think that most of it originates in the Temple Lands.

My guess for Zion's population is about 2 million. I could stand to be corrected on that figure.

Don

Actually, a great deal of Zion's food is shipped across Lake Pei, and there's an extensive network of canals in the Temple Lands that connect to the surrounding countries that haven't appeared on the map yet. So even before the ICN basically swept the seas free of enemy shipping except for the in Gulf of Dohlar, Zion was being primarily supplied by canals. I'm sure there's been a noticeable reduction in the amount of food arriving by sea, but the textev makes it clear that almost all of the city's food was shipped via canals that connect to Lake Pei.

Your estimate of 2 million for the population of Zion is likely too high, possibly by a large margin. Let's consider how Tellesberg is described in OAR: "The city's total population was in the vicinity of a hundred thousand, which made it huge for Charis and much more than merely respectable for Safehold generally. It also meant Tellesberg was completely ringed by farmland whose sole purpose was to keep the city's population fed. Even so, it was necessary to import vast quantities of food on a regular basis. The Charisian merchant marine was more than equal to the task, as long as the Royal Charisian Navy maintained control of Howell Bay, but a hundred thousand was still an enormous population for a city built by a civilization powered only by wind, water, and muscle."

Obviously Zion is much larger than Tellesberg, although there are larger cities on Safehold - from OAR: "the city itself—one of the half-dozen largest on all of Safehold, and by far its oldest—existed for only one purpose: to serve the needs of the Church of God Awaiting." I suspect there's a limit to how large a city can be when it exists in a place with a climate so harsh that Langhorne set up his headquarters there as proof of the power of the archangels!

Tellesberg is surrounded by farmland that raises four crops a year and has cutting edge agricultural equipment. Zion can barely manage one crop, it's equipment is inferior, and it lacks the EoC's huge merchant marine. Granted, it has well organized methods of importing food, but the vast majority of that food has to be imported.

I'd guess that Zion has no more than a million inhabitants, although my gut feeling is that it may have as few as 500,000, given the food situation. Besides, if your occupation wasn't dependent on the CoGA, would you even want to live there? Move south and spare yourself the horrible winters! I hear that Silkiah is lovely in February!

It is also quite likely at this point that Zion is suffering as a result of the Sword of Schuler. I would consider it highly likely that a good portion of their food supplies came from Siddermark and as a result of the Sword, that supply has been cut off and will be for quite some time even following the conclusion of the war, leaving the Temple Lands and Harchong as their major external source of foods. Additionally, even beyond the damage the Sword has done to the supply situation, war has its own costs in terms of manpower and logistics. In short if you take the manpower and put it in the army, they aren't growing food and both the TL and Harchong are heavily dependent on manpower to do the work, and if you have an army, you also have to feed that army, further reducing the food supply available to ship to Zion and if you are shipping food to wherever your army is, that shipping is not available to ship supplies to Zion. Isn't it funny how double-edged Swords can be?

Keith_w wrote:It is also quite likely at this point that Zion is suffering as a result of the Sword of Schuler. I would consider it highly likely that a good portion of their food supplies came from Siddermark and as a result of the Sword, that supply has been cut off and will be for quite some time even following the conclusion of the war, leaving the Temple Lands and Harchong as their major external source of foods. Additionally, even beyond the damage the Sword has done to the supply situation, war has its own costs in terms of manpower and logistics. In short if you take the manpower and put it in the army, they aren't growing food and both the TL and Harchong are heavily dependent on manpower to do the work, and if you have an army, you also have to feed that army, further reducing the food supply available to ship to Zion and if you are shipping food to wherever your army is, that shipping is not available to ship supplies to Zion. Isn't it funny how double-edged Swords can be?

Siddarmark is a bit far for transporting food by canal in an age before refrigeration. There are plenty of closer farmlands in the Temple Lands, the Border States, and North Harchong to get food. No need to reach as far as Siddarmark.

SWM wrote:

Keith_w wrote:It is also quite likely at this point that Zion is suffering as a result of the Sword of Schuler. I would consider it highly likely that a good portion of their food supplies came from Siddermark and as a result of the Sword, that supply has been cut off and will be for quite some time even following the conclusion of the war, leaving the Temple Lands and Harchong as their major external source of foods. Additionally, even beyond the damage the Sword has done to the supply situation, war has its own costs in terms of manpower and logistics. In short if you take the manpower and put it in the army, they aren't growing food and both the TL and Harchong are heavily dependent on manpower to do the work, and if you have an army, you also have to feed that army, further reducing the food supply available to ship to Zion and if you are shipping food to wherever your army is, that shipping is not available to ship supplies to Zion. Isn't it funny how double-edged Swords can be?

Siddarmark is a bit far for transporting food by canal in an age before refrigeration. There are plenty of closer farmlands in the Temple Lands, the Border States, and North Harchong to get food. No need to reach as far as Siddarmark.

I am pretty sure you don't have to refrigerate grains such as wheat or rice nor do you have to refrigerate most vegetables including tubers (potatoes, carrots etc), and firm fruits. As long as you can keep things cool, that should be sufficient.

Edit: Chris shipped shipload of food to Siddarmark which is a lot further. Additionally, western Siddermark is a lot closer to Zion than it is to Siddermark City. Farmers like markets, the closer the better.

Keith_w wrote:

SWM wrote:Siddarmark is a bit far for transporting food by canal in an age before refrigeration. There are plenty of closer farmlands in the Temple Lands, the Border States, and North Harchong to get food. No need to reach as far as Siddarmark.

I am pretty sure you don't have to refrigerate grains such as wheat or rice nor do you have to refrigerate most vegetables including tubers (potatoes, carrots etc), and firm fruits. As long as you can keep things cool, that should be sufficient.

Edit: Chris shipped shipload of food to Siddarmark which is a lot further. Additionally, western Siddermark is a lot closer to Zion than it is to Siddermark City. Farmers like markets, the closer the better.

Even meat, before refrigeration, was routinely shipped that far, and farther. You preserved it by smoking it, jerking it, canning it, etc...