ERIM

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[quote="Jonathan_S"]I don't know that I'd categorize it as "re-writing", but the earlier books talked about (at least artifical) grav as being FTL - it was fairly late in the series when he added the clarification that the FTL grav signals propagated as ripples along the next higher hyper-wall. Hence why the "effective real-time receipt" mentioned in HotQ was really 62x c (speed of light in the Alpha bands) (though SftS says "sixty-four times the speed of light"; but I believe that's an error based on surround information and previous info dumps from RFC) -- full quote was
"Footprints, like gravitic pulses, were detectable by the fluctuations they imposed on the alpha wall interface with normal-space, which meant they propagated at roughly sixty-four times the speed of light."

That clarification has some implications on sensors and FTL transmission in hyper that haven't been explored in the text yet. (Though it come up from time to time in discussions here) Even in the Delta bands, while escorting merchant ships, the grav sensors (and FTL comms) would apparently only operate about about 1.32c - a far cry from the 62c they do in n-space.

That slower FTL in hyper seems to undermines part of the justification that McKeon gives for the Sarnow deployment of convoy escorts (in IEH). Yes, the ship out in front extends the sensor range, but if the FTL comm is only 1.33c you don't get the report back anywhere near as quickly as McKeon seems to be saying.

[set to normal size] Though even before the clarification I had issues with their plan, because it relied on Prince Adrian using a recon drone's FTL transmitter; because she hadn't yet been refit with her own. Works fine in a rift; but recon drones aren't built to operate in grav waves - I don't see why their extra FTL transmitter node would have the extra size and circuitry needed to tune it to avoid self-destructing when used inside a grav wave (effectively making it an alpha node)[/size][/quote

You aren't traveling with a sidewall--just swim the drone out of the boat bay on a tractor, and hold on with the tractor. It won't need a wedge--and they already do this with the tethered EW drones in n-space, so you have the ability to hold it at a distance.

And the use-a-drone concept is re-used in Nuncio, when they bolted the drone to the Nuncian LAC, giving Lt Hearns an FTL communication system.

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:snipped

Jonathan_S wrote:Though even before the clarification I had issues with their plan, because it relied on Prince Adrian using a recon drone's FTL transmitter; because she hadn't yet been refit with her own. Works fine in a rift; but recon drones aren't built to operate in grav waves - I don't see why their extra FTL transmitter node would have the extra size and circuitry needed to tune it to avoid self-destructing when used inside a grav wave (effectively making it an alpha node)[/size]

You aren't traveling with a sidewall--just swim the drone out of the boat bay on a tractor, and hold on with the tractor. It won't need a wedge--and they already do this with the tethered EW drones in n-space, so you have the ability to hold it at a distance.

And the use-a-drone concept is re-used in Nuncio, when they bolted the drone to the Nuncian LAC, giving Lt Hearns an FTL communication system.

Rob

My objection wasn't that the drone couldn't be launched (we know from SVW that tractors can work within a grav wave). But the act of sending an FTL signal involves forming a gravitational ripple. Attempting to do that within a super-powerful gravity of a 'wave (without the tuners needed to let Alpha nodes adjust a sail to avoid destructive inference from the 'wave) is likely just as destructive as trying to bring up a wedge. Feedback and/or interference will, I believe, cause the grav generator to fail catastrophically.

I just don't see it as likely that those fairly early FTL recon drones spent the volume, and cost, to put in FTL transmitters with grav wave tuner support.
Ship-board FTL did, but they used their nodes to signal, and the alpha nodes already had that tech (plus ships have way more volume available than drones).


Maybe I'm wrong, and drones can signal in FTL from environment were they can't be independently deployed -- but personally I doubt it. (And Nuncio was all n-space; no issue with using its FTL transmitter as a faster comm relay there)

Why are you guys talking grav waves and FTL to begin with? Secondly; FTL RD transmitter from Prince Adrian was used in 'n' space in IEH. The FTL RD was set for when the convoy exited Hyperspace it started yammering away and telling them to GET OUT NOW! It certainly was not placed or used in higher hyper bands nor in a grav wave to warn the convoy.

Why are you guys talking grav waves and FTL to begin with? Secondly; FTL RD transmitter from Prince Adrian was used in 'n' space in IEH. The code was preset as Prince Adrian did not have FTL com. The FTL RD was set for when the convoy exited Hyperspace it started yammering away and telling them to GET OUT NOW! It certainly was not placed or used in higher hyper bands nor in a grav wave to warn the convoy.

Where on earth do you get the 1.33 multiplication factor? Just read IEH and no mention of such. Coulda missed it I suppose.

Relax wrote:Why are you guys talking grav waves and FTL to begin with? Secondly; FTL RD transmitter from Prince Adrian was used in 'n' space in IEH. The code was preset as Prince Adrian did not have FTL com. The FTL RD was set for when the convoy exited Hyperspace it started yammering away and telling them to GET OUT NOW! It certainly was not placed or used in higher hyper bands nor in a grav wave to warn the convoy.

Where on earth do you get the 1.33 multiplication factor? Just read IEH and no mention of such. Coulda missed it I suppose.

Talking about using the drone's FTL transmitter because that's what IEH said the convoy protection plan would do.

In Enemy Hands - Ch: 9 wrote:"True enough," McKeon agreed. "But our first responsibility is to the convoy. If it comes right down to it, any escort is expendable, and a Sarnow deployment will stretch the convoy's sensor envelope by a good nine light-minutes. Even those of us who don't have built in FTL coms have recon drones that do, and that means the picket will be able to see any bad guys and report them to the flagship long before they see the flagship. At worst, that should at least let us keep the merchies clear of them; at best, we'll have a pretty fair shot of sucking any weak raiding force into an ambush of our own."

In Enemy Hands - Ch:14 wrote:Unlike her flagship, Prince Adrian had no internal FTL transmitter. The technology hadn't existed when she was built, and finding room to retrofit the impeller node modifications required to project the gravity pulses upon which the system relied would have required complete rebuilding, not just a refit. Any ship could use its standard gravitic detectors to read an FTL message (assuming it knew what to look for), and Prince Adrian's recon drones, built to a more modern design than their mother ship and with enormously smaller impeller nodes, mounted less powerful transmitters for long-range reconnaissance missions. But the ship's onboard transmission capability was limited to light-speed, which meant that, since Alvarez was still nine light-minutes astern of Prince Adrian in hyper-space (which translated to an n-space distance of almost nine light-days), the message Sanko had transmitted would take approximately six minutes to reach the flagship

Though this 2nd quote (while they were within the grav wave - about to enter n-space and scout Adler) implies that despite the discussion in chapter 9 about the lead scout using a drone's FTL to warn the flagship, that this can't be (or at least wasn't) done in a grav wave.

So maybe they viewed the highest risk part of hyper as the rifts (where the drone's transmitter clearly could be used) -- but that wasn't the impression I initially got reading the quote from chapter 9; hence my reaction to the apparent inconsistency.



The speed of FTL-comms in hyper isn't explicitly stated, but it's a logical inference from the way RFC explains its functional mechanism in the later books.
"Footprints, like gravitic pulses, were detectable by the fluctuations they imposed on the alpha wall interface with normal-space" and in hyper they cause fluctuation on the next higher hyper wall interface.

The ratio between c (n-space) and c (alpha) is 1:62 - hence the 62x c FTL propagation.
The ratio between c (delta: 2178c) and c (epsilon: 2884c) is 1:1.324 - hence my claim of a roughly 1.33x c FTL propagation in the delta bands.

(This 'slow FTL in hyper' idea has come up in previous discussions about intersteller FTL comm relays -- which are impractical anyway for plenty of other good reasons)

Jonathan_S wrote:

Relax wrote:Where on earth do you get the 1.33 multiplication factor? Just read IEH and no mention of such. Coulda missed it I suppose.

The speed of FTL-comms in hyper isn't explicitly stated, but it's a logical inference from the way RFC explains its functional mechanism in the later books.
"Footprints, like gravitic pulses, were detectable by the fluctuations they imposed on the alpha wall interface with normal-space" and in hyper they cause fluctuation on the next higher hyper wall interface.

The ratio between c (n-space) and c (alpha) is 1:62 - hence the 62x c FTL propagation.
The ratio between c (delta: 2178c) and c (epsilon: 2884c) is 1:1.324 - hence my claim of a roughly 1.33x c FTL propagation in the delta bands.

(This 'slow FTL in hyper' idea has come up in previous discussions about intersteller FTL comm relays -- which are impractical anyway for plenty of other good reasons)

Actually, David has explicitly confirmed that FTL transmission is always at the speed of the next higher hyper band. See the Pearls: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/157/1. So you are absolutely correct about the relative speed of FTL comm in the Delta band. It is 1.324 times the speed of light in the Delta band.

Yes, I get that, FTL speed in higher bands. Honestly something I had ever bothered to contemplate before. But what does that have to do with ERIM thread discussion and David supposedly changing how FTL works mid point in the books?

Everything is directly in line. I do not see any even tiny detail of FTL comm changing other than data rate going up.

PS. W-sails out of Alpha nodes work fine in grav waves. Apparently, FTL nodes on RD's work on same principle in some very small scaled down version. This would also explain why so many always thought that for FTL communication it would require a MASSIVE tonnage...