[Spoilers] Does Chichiro wanted to live forever?

Thanks to the new snippet,

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7017

we have some pretty interesting data:

According to the Spanish portion, however, Kohdy had started to suspect that Chihiro and his closest supporters had retained Hamilcar — although Kohdy didn’t know what Hamilcar truly was; he refers to it throughout as ‘the Dawn Star’ — out of his own ambition to replace and supplant Langhorne completely.”

But from several of his comments, some oblique enough it took Owl’s analysis to tease them out of the underbrush, he’d come around — slowly and unwillingly — to the belief that Chihiro was . . . significantly modifying Langhorne’s original plan. That’s the reason he went to Schueler.”

I.e. Chichiro wanted to replace Langhorne? But in what way? He actually have the control of the colony in this time; why would he wanted to supplant the Langhorne in religious scheme at all? After all, what difference for Chichirom what the distant descendants of the Adames and Eves would think about his place in religion? He would not be here!

Or he would?

The idea: what if the Chichiro actually wanted to live forever? The Federation technology was more than capable to do that; they just didn't have time to fully realize that. What if the Chichiro actually undertood, that in the body of PICA or in some sort of VR-control system he would actually be able to live forever?

In THAT case, the modifying of Langhorne plan and "replacing the Langhorne completely" make perfect sence. He WOULD BE HERE to see, what his distant descendants think about him. He would be... actually, with the technology of "Hamilcar", for the peoples of Safehold, he would be god.

Dilandu wrote:
The idea: what if the Chichiro actually wanted to live forever?

Of course he did. Who doesn't?

That's interesting - and plausible, in the light of the last snippet - scenario. The only problem I have with it is that if Chihiro wanted to live forever, why didn't he nab Merlin the moment our seijin showed up?

Or, to put it otherwise, why isn't Chihiro still around? What's the point of living forever if you're, say, stuck on some ship or in virtual reality? Hibernating for a thousand years isn't exactly the best way one could use immortality for. There is, of course, distant possibility that he's hiding among people, moving every ten or so years and whatnot, but if he could appear to people as a god, why wouldn't he do so? He did sign up on Langhorne's "let's pose as archangels" idea, so he's definitely megalomaniac. Then why not wait until Schueler kicks the bucket and then set himself up as some sort of divine pharaoh everyone would worship? With the power he'd command there wouldn't be much people could do about it any by fifth generation or so people wouldn't remember about Langhorne or anything else Chihiro wouldn't want them to.

Two problems with "Chichiro wants to live forever" theory.

1) Federation culture did not consider a PICA or virtual personality to be the same person as the template person who provided the mind for them. Chichiro being a product of that culture would not regard a PICA or virtual copy of himself to be HIM.

2) Even if Chichiro bucked Federation culture and did consider a PICA or virtual copy to be extensions of himself and therefore him, Chichiro was not a cyberneticist like Proctor. Chichiro was a historian/bureaucrat/scholar/whatever. He did not himself have the skill set to reprogram a PICA or create a virtual copy.

Of course like Merlin and Nimue 3.0, Chichiro could have had an AI like OWL do all the grunt work when it came to creating an electronic copy of himself...

Kakai wrote:That's interesting - and plausible, in the light of the last snippet - scenario. The only problem I have with it is that if Chihiro wanted to live forever, why didn't he nab Merlin the moment our seijin showed up?

Or, to put it otherwise, why isn't Chihiro still around? What's the point of living forever if you're, say, stuck on some ship or in virtual reality? Hibernating for a thousand years isn't exactly the best way one could use immortality for. There is, of course, distant possibility that he's hiding among people, moving every ten or so years and whatnot, but if he could appear to people as a god, why wouldn't he do so? He did sign up on Langhorne's "let's pose as archangels" idea, so he's definitely megalomaniac. Then why not wait until Schueler kicks the bucket and then set himself up as some sort of divine pharaoh everyone would worship? With the power he'd command there wouldn't be much people could do about it any by fifth generation or so people wouldn't remember about Langhorne or anything else Chihiro wouldn't want them to.

Some points to consider:

• How old was Chihiro when Langhorne kicked it? (lifespans and all that)
• What's the lifespan for someone that has continuous access to federation tech anti-gerone treatments?
• Hibernation is only good for about 200-250 years (IIRC).
• Prolonged hibernation requires a full body regeneration afterwards (IIRC).
• Is it possible to cycle hibernation with regen indefinitely without detrimental effects?
• Virtual reality slowed down may be a possible way (but AFAIK there is no PICA's for Chihiro to inhabit).
• Prolonged virtual reality exposure usually means virtual suicide or mental breakdown.

I would list the possibility that Chihiro is still around as non-existent. But if we speculate that he wanted to set himself up as the ruler of Safehold, this is the way I would have done it ignoring any Federation laws:

• Set yourself up as the last Archangel on Safehold to oversee Gods children.
• Regular personality downloads.
• Groom a successor by having an event where a child will be elevated by God to become an Archangel.
• Install NEAT in said child and download appropriate knowledge from your own personality downloads for "education".
• When you kick it, downloaded your whole personality to the successor.
• Rinse, repeat, "live" forever.

The above is dependent on that you can use your own downloads to transfer knowledge to another person.

evilauthor wrote:Two problems with "Chichiro wants to live forever" theory.

1) Federation culture did not consider a PICA or virtual personality to be the same person as the template person who provided the mind for them. Chichiro being a product of that culture would not regard a PICA or virtual copy of himself to be HIM.

We can't be sure that it was right for ALL humans. The federation position was clearly flawed, and they just didn't have enough time to reconsider that - THAT was the problem. But Chichiro have a lot of time to think about it for himself and realize "Why should I take into account the opinion of some stupid bureaucrats? They are all dead now! If i'm right, i would live forever... forever! And not only live, but rule the humanity, mua-ha-ha!!!"

2) Even if Chichiro bucked Federation culture and did consider a PICA or virtual copy to be extensions of himself and therefore him, Chichiro was not a cyberneticist like Proctor. Chichiro was a historian/bureaucrat/scholar/whatever. He did not himself have the skill set to reprogram a PICA or create a virtual copy.

And that's why i think, he doesn't appear previously. He need time to re-invent the PICA. Probably a lot of time, because he may not have any last-generation PICA to start with.

Joat42 wrote:Virtual reality slowed down may be a possible way (but AFAIK there is no PICA's for Chihiro to inhabit).
Prolonged virtual reality exposure usually means virtual suicide or mental breakdown.

My opinion - that the Chichiro antisipated that, and put the last-breath copy of his personality in inactive storage - waiting for the "Hamilcar" AI to reinvent the PICA. Or, possibly, more than just a PICA. After all, he have millenia to work on something more capable and effective, that even the last-generation PICA could be. Something, that would provide him with ability to "return" on Safehold as Archangel - and actually control the planet forever.

peke wrote:

Dilandu wrote:
The idea: what if the Chichiro actually wanted to live forever?

Of course he did. Who doesn't?

I certainly do, and so far, so good.

The idea: what if the Chichiro actually wanted to live forever?

Of course he did. Who doesn't?

I certainly do, and so far, so good.

Isn't that what the guy who jumped off the 100 story building said as he passed the 50th floor?

Random Numbers wrote:
quote The idea: what if the Chichiro actually wanted to live forever?
/quote

quote
Of course he did. Who doesn't? /quote
quote /quote
I certainly do, and so far, so good. /quote
Isn't that what the guy who jumped off the 100 story building said as he passed the 50th floor?

Possibly, but you know there could be a series of awnings waiting to catch you. That's the <nice>(?) thing about life, you never know what awaits you at the end of the road, fall, whatever