Saganami Island

BobfromSydney wrote:I think there has also been some mention of Napoleon's army relying on promotion through the ranks. Any history buffs here that can enlighten us more?

I think that was because of how fast the French military expanded during the era combined with many pre-Revolution French officers opposing the new government. I don't think the French ever did away with specialized officer training in that era but I'm not certain.

Also are any of the current forces which use all mustang officer corps navies? I'm pretty sure the Israeli Naval officer corps doesn't go the all mustang route unless the Wikipedia article describing their naval academy and how cadets are selected is one hundred percent BS.

Roguevictory wrote:

BobfromSydney wrote:I think there has also been some mention of Napoleon's army relying on promotion through the ranks. Any history buffs here that can enlighten us more?

I think that was because of how fast the French military expanded during the era combined with many pre-Revolution French officers opposing the new government. I don't think the French ever did away with specialized officer training in that era but I'm not certain.

Also are any of the current forces which use all mustang officer corps navies? I'm pretty sure the Israeli Naval officer corps doesn't go the all mustang route unless the Wikipedia article describing their naval academy and how cadets are selected is one hundred percent BS.

I've not looked into the Israeli Navy specifically at all. I've been looking into the Finnish one some - happily, they have a website in English.

I've still not been able to find a conclusive answer poking around there though. The reserve officers are drawn from the pool of conscripts, along with NCO's of course, but I've not yet found anything on the career path for regular, career officers.

Ah, here we go - officers come out of the National Defence University. (It appears the same institution is used for the Finnish Army, Navy, and Air Force.) It may be that any Finnish entrant will have completed his or her year of conscripted national service already (for all I can tell yet), but there's provision for foreign students entering it and I don't think the year of service is quite mandatory for women, so there would be at least two paths into the officer corps that may not go through prior enlisted time.

BobfromSydney wrote:I think there has also been some mention of Napoleon's army relying on promotion through the ranks. Any history buffs here that can enlighten us more?

I can think of two, aside from Napoleon's Grand Army.

It was one of the suggestions of the Levelers, before a naval mutiny gave the UK an excuse to purge them for good. Although, I think some of them wanted to do away with the distinction between officers and enlisted altogether. . .

Unlike Levelers in Haven, the original group abandoned politics and the military and became known to posterity as the Society of Friends (Quakers).

Best example I know of is the army of Ghengis Khan, real name Tamiesan. He applied Chinese bureaucratic organization to the military, and advancement was solely by merit. He had some of the best organized logistics of the age--and it was an accident of history that he came West at all. He sent diplomats west to re-open the Silk Road trade route (he needed cash), and some idiot sent him back their heads.

What he really wanted (and got, mostly) was China. Unlike central Asia or Russia, China was very heavily populated and rich.

Rob

Interesting though I wish there was more solid data on the Finnish side.

What I've read says the Israeli keep track of test results before their citizens begin their national service period to identify those they feel will be skilled naval officers, and fighter pilots as well for that matter. Candidates are put through testing when they report for service and those that pass are sent to the naval academy.

The way it works in Israel is like this (caveat/full disclouser - they changed the pre-enlistment process significantly after I was in, so that part may not be 100% accurate):

At some point in high school, you'll be called in for an interview/tests/medical examination. Based on the results you'll be assigned a medical profile rating (indicating your level of physical/psychological fitness for services) and a "quality group" rating(exactly how and with what information this is determined is tightly classified). These two numbers (as well as a few other factors) determine what positions you'll be offered. You get a letter which a list of choices from which you need to choose; also, there are a large number of positions where, if you meet the initial criteria, you'll be called for additional tests.

Flight course and naval command officer course are tow of these. If you pass all the preliminary tests and then complete the courses themselves you'll be an officer without having spent time in ranks (except technically, since you'll have enlisted rank until you complete the course).

For other combat units, you'll start in basic training and complete advanced training and then if selected squad leader's course (or the equivalent depending on Corps). After this you may request to go to officer's course; if accepted, you go to one of the tow officer training bases and later Corps training and at the end you're an officer. Not counting training, you'll probably spend a few months in an enlisted position (although if you're good and the timing works out you may go directly from one course to the next).

For non-combat positions, its similiar, except that because the training is much shorter and you don't have to do the NCO course, you'll spend more time in your enlisted position.

A couple of Corps (mostly non-officer positions) offer "direct-to-officer" tracks where although the track is largely as above, you're per-selected for OCS so you don't have the subsequent tests and you do an NCO course even if you're not combat arms - these are usually structured so that you spend a few months in an enlisted position between courses.

An exception to all of the above is certain specialties which require an academic or other degree (mainly doctors, some intelligence positions and various others) where you essentially become an officer without serving as an enlisted first (except in the same technical sense as with pilots).

BobfromSydney wrote:I think there has also been some mention of Napoleon's army relying on promotion through the ranks. Any history buffs here that can enlighten us more?

I believe you are referring to the quote that consists something along the lines of

Napoleonic Era Troops wrote:"there's a field marshall baton in every troopers knapsack."

It's main meaning is covered better in HH04-Field of Dishonor (first few chapters, where the Alexander brothers are speaking). Essentially Napoleon wiped out the officer corps that existed because of family, and gave a chance for anyone to rise on merit alone. While he did lose some rather experienced effective captains through to general, the majority were neither experienced nor effective. So he cut dead weight, and got a more efficient army out of it. I'm unsure if he totally eliminated the officer schools, or if they basically just got told "you're promoted, you have command of X, and you're going to do...".

Think of Napoleon's army as... the Starship Troopers army. Razscak lost his sergeant on Planet P, just walking to the outpost, and promotes Rico on the spot. Razscak gets mauled in the evac, Rico becomes the Lieutenant simply by being the highest rank (and promoted originally for his merit).

Somtaaw wrote:Think of Napoleon's army as... the Starship Troopers army. Razscak lost his sergeant on Planet P, just walking to the outpost, and promotes Rico on the spot. Razscak gets mauled in the evac, Rico becomes the Lieutenant simply by being the highest rank (and promoted originally for his merit).

That would be the (godawful IMHO) movie version? IIRC in the book Planet P is the "bug raid" which Rico goes on as a "temporary 3rd lieutenant" at the end of his OCS course?

(One of his graduating class was actually demoted to go to OCS! He had a field promotion to 1st lieutenant, was demoted to temporary 3rd lieutenant when he came out of OCS. If he passed the field test he'd be promoted to 2nd lieutenant, if he failed he'd revert to his permanent rank of 1st lieutenant!)

Palmer-Sperry wrote:
(One of his graduating class was actually demoted to go to OCS!]

Hassan "The Assassin"

Making training time shorter on th island, the admiralty could have done what the USN did under CNO Zumwalt

Zumwalt instituted the 'Mod Squad' - Destroyer Squadron 26 and later 31 - to give promising young officers early command experience. Billets were a rank lower than normal.

I was in the Navy during this time period and remember all the Z-grams. If the above was tried by the First Space Lord they would have to get rid of all politics and favoritism.

Never post on this excellent forum before your coffee ... or tea. I keep posting in the wrong sections and even then I hijack the thread. I am sorry everybody. Let me have my coffee. Glug glug.

In spite of the war, the Manities probably had things in hand well enough to just slightly streamline the teaching while cleaning up on the stuff that was not essential for becoming a good officer.

What has not been explored completely is the Manties going deeper into the senior enlisted ranks to select cadre for the Island. While this also creates a shortage of the best enlisted personal, ...

... It would also give the officers corp a different view of things. Like from the bottom up rather than the common mistake of trying to run a military from the top down. More experience.

As far as the present day USA military academys, perhaps in the future ONLY enlisted personal with hopefully combat experience will be selected for the boat school. Bottom up. Not Mustangs.

They would still be ring knockers, but had several tours as a seaman, working their way up via merit only. Then the very best of them would go to the Naval Academy. Just me. HB of CJ (coot)