NEAT in the next generation

AirTech wrote:

Draken wrote:You could implant them this interface and probably hide it under hairs and synthetic skin, so it could be used later. Or just program nanites to do only under skin part of it, till the subject is let's say 30 years old or if it's authorized by Merlin to be activated earlier. Also a lot of things which can't be hidden and are rather obvious, aren't found by people which are looking at them, so I think that those data ports won't be that hard to hide, even in the open.

I think you would be looking at wireless links (as are used for most brain implants today for hearing and visual interfaces, since these would usually be temporary connections a head set or helmet would do the job of supporting the interface. (Implanted hearing aids use a stud to hold the induction coils in place so they don't get knocked off). Having the electronics buried under the skin barrier and using induction coupling helps prevent infection paths that would otherwise be a issue with plugs and sockets. The embedded electronics could be integrated with the brain and skull and would only be visible with an X-ray (the induction coils and antenna's would be a little obvious) but X-ray's will be a little while becoming common (photography will need to be first and the use of natural X-ray sources can be unpredictable).

Did anyone read the earlier posts in this thread?

The text tells us that Merlin has already decided that NEATs cannot be implanted currently because they would be discovered.

SWM wrote:Did anyone read the earlier posts in this thread?

The text tells us that Merlin has already decided that NEATs cannot be implanted currently because they would be discovered.

I am glad that an original search engine is monitoring this thread. Otherwise I would have been compelled to imitate a broken gramophone record.

As I have suggested before somewhere, I think implants are limited to babies brought up in the care of members of the inner circle. Babies who can be isolated from change encounters with non-initiated people. For as long as it takes for the surgery to heal and the hair to grow thick and long enough to camouflage any visible marks. For most children that is 2 - 3 year.

Places like the imperial college and the monastery of St. Zherneau spring to mind. But the best would be a really isolated place that can only be reached by inner circle members.

Tanstaafl wrote:

SWM wrote:Did anyone read the earlier posts in this thread?

The text tells us that Merlin has already decided that NEATs cannot be implanted currently because they would be discovered.

I am glad that an original search engine is monitoring this thread. Otherwise I would have been compelled to imitate a broken gramophone record.

As I have suggested before somewhere, I think implants are limited to babies brought up in the care of members of the inner circle. Babies who can be isolated from change encounters with non-initiated people. For as long as it takes for the surgery to heal and the hair to grow thick and long enough to camouflage any visible marks. For most children that is 2 - 3 year.

Places like the imperial college and the monastery of St. Zherneau spring to mind. But the best would be a really isolated place that can only be reached by inner circle members.

Without delving into the intricate details of this, I would suspect that in the TF, the only people with the right to make a decision like that for an infant would be the parents and that was in a context where the neats were publically known and accepted.

On Safehold? The price the child would pay as he (she) grew in years would be extremely high if isolation from the rest of society was the cost or even if the child is out in the public and the neat is discovered. Isolation means depriving the child of choices I believe are given by God as part of being human.

It's one thing for me to decide to commit my life to a cause. It's quite another for someone else to make that choice for me, especially if the choice is irrevocable.

This seems to me to be unethical. People are not pawns to be manipulated or spent for our purposes, no matter how noble the purpose might seem.

Don

n7axw wrote:

Tanstaafl wrote:
As I have suggested before somewhere, I think implants are limited to babies brought up in the care of members of the inner circle. Babies who can be isolated from change encounters with non-initiated people. For as long as it takes for the surgery to heal and the hair to grow thick and long enough to camouflage any visible marks. For most children that is 2 - 3 year.

Places like the imperial college and the monastery of St. Zherneau spring to mind. But the best would be a really isolated place that can only be reached by inner circle members.

Without delving into the intricate details of this, I would suspect that in the TF, the only people with the right to make a decision like that for an infant would be the parents and that was in a context where the neats were publically known and accepted.

On Safehold? The price the child would pay as he (she) grew in years would be extremely high if isolation from the rest of society was the cost or even if the child is out in the public and the neat is discovered. Isolation means depriving the child of choices I believe are given by God as part of being human.

It's one thing for me to decide to commit my life to a cause. It's quite another for someone else to make that choice for me, especially if the choice is irrevocable.

This seems to me to be unethical. People are not pawns to be manipulated or spent for our purposes, no matter how noble the purpose might seem.

Don

Don,

in this case I was thinking of the children of inner circle parents.

My intention was more to point out the limitations and the risks involved than advocating this.

In my opinion, a parents (or guardians) duty is to raise a child so that the future adult can live the life it chooses. To prepare a child as best as he / she can to fulfill its dreams.

I have two kids in college and my discussions with them are about what they want to be(come) and how I can help them with that.

I have fought tooth and nails to protect my children from choices society made for them and where not in their best interest. If I have ever given the impression that the welfare of children is not important to me, I apologize for not communicating better.

Oh, and I have spent some years in homes run by "child-care" as "ward-of-the-state". I was lucky, it was more like boys-town than the places Oliver Twist grew up. But I am still allergic to people who know what is best for me.

Tanstaafl wrote:

Don,

in this case I was thinking of the children of inner circle parents.

My intention was more to point out the limitations and the risks involved than advocating this.

In my opinion, a parents (or guardians) duty is to raise a child so that the future adult can live the life it chooses. To prepare a child as best as he / she can to fulfill its dreams.

I have two kids in college and my discussions with them are about what they want to be(come) and how I can help them with that.

I have fought tooth and nails to protect my children from choices society made for them and where not in their best interest. If I have ever given the impression that the welfare of children is not important to me, I apologize for not communicating better.

Oh, and I have spent some years in homes run by "child-care" as "ward-of-the-state". I was lucky, it was more like boys-town than the places Oliver Twist grew up. But I am still allergic to people who know what is best for me.

Thank you for the clarification... and thank you for sharing. I deeply appreciated this post.

Don

While I am all for giving kids the best chance at their respective futures. I think what Merlin and Co need is for people to learn to be curious, at least initially. This idea would be a grand one after society accepts that in some extent. I suppose it is a question of how fast RFC wants time to move on Safehold after the war is done. If you're talking a century of working within the society to change it, this is a valid strategy to use. If they have to worry about an external pressure like the Gbaba appearing in-system, then too much will be happening too fast.

Ethan

ETathome wrote:While I am all for giving kids the best chance at their respective futures. I think what Merlin and Co need is for people to learn to be curious, at least initially. This idea would be a grand one after society accepts that in some extent. I suppose it is a question of how fast RFC wants time to move on Safehold after the war is done. If you're talking a century of working within the society to change it, this is a valid strategy to use. If they have to worry about an external pressure like the Gbaba appearing in-system, then too much will be happening too fast.

Ethan

Valid points. I think that there is going to be a break where the narrative of this phase of the story ends and after a lapse of time, the story will pick up again with a technologically advanced humanity preparing to go after the Gbaba. My own suspicion is we have two more books in this phase of things before the break, HFQ and one more...

Just conjecture on my part, of course. Probably the only one who knowa for sure is RFC...

Don

SWM wrote:
Did anyone read the earlier posts in this thread?

The text tells us that Merlin has already decided that NEATs cannot be implanted currently because they would be discovered.

If detection is an issue then design for difficulty in detection is possible. Stealth design for electronics is possible too. Diamond semiconductors are one option - diamond burns unlike silicon or germanium, or even organic semiconductors (which are currently being explored as an option). Biological processors (engineered bacteria) using DNA or protein based electronics would be another option (DNA and protein based logic gates have been demonstrated).
So unless the investigator has the time and the inclination to go looking for the one in a million corpses with advanced technology that looks just like a bacterial or fungal infection before it decays, hiding the implants is certainly possible. This is a tangent OWL could well explore if deemed worthwhile.
As for using children as pawns in societies games - its been done over and over again and is still being done today, we do it for educational, religious, political and military reasons in every state on earth, you can teach a child to be tolerant or intolerant, kind and merciful or blood thirsty, it is the parents, teachers, politicians and religious leaders choice. The Jesuits used a saying that if you have a child at seven, you have them for life. The operators of extremist Madrassas in Indonesia,Pakistan, Palestine and Saudi Arabia operate on the same basis. The Hitler Youth, imperial Japanese and Stalinist Soviets used the same techniques - start young and teach the children that they are superior beings to all others and all others are worthy of death (unless they submit, but that is an optional extra)- shake well and you have an instant fanatical army willing to do anything you ask of them without question or mercy.
Monarchs have always looked for an advantage for their families - that is the whole basis of the family centered practice of governance. The difficulty would be in ensuring the reliability of the recipient until it becomes common practice given the need to teach a child early to use the NEAT interface.

AirTech wrote:

SWM wrote:
Did anyone read the earlier posts in this thread?

The text tells us that Merlin has already decided that NEATs cannot be implanted currently because they would be discovered.

If detection is an issue then design for difficulty in detection is possible.

The problem is that you can't hide major surgery on a newly born.

Tanstaafl wrote:
The problem is that you can't hide major surgery on a newly born.

That presumes you are looking at major surgery, (unlikely if you have nanobots), and even today keyhole surgery can do wonders. What may be an issue is a source of raw materials for the nanobots and guidance. The bigger issue is probably explaining the couple of day's absence of a young child.