Promotion for CWO Harkness

cthia wrote:I'm beginning to think that the PMV demands Honor to salute. Being Honor, I'm sure she would be delighted to show Harkness the respect that he deserves and has earned also whilst giving due respect to the medal and for what it stands - especially in lieu of the fact that he is responsible for her being alive. Whether, or not, each salute would fail to bleed Harkness red, has my chips on the former.

I was hoping that there was a real life parallel. There is the US Army Medal of Honor.

7. Medal of Honor recipients have uniform privileges, which allow them to wear their uniforms at any time or place they choose, unlike other military personnel or retirees.

8. Although not required by law or military regulation, service members are encouraged to salute Medal of Honor recipients as a gesture of respect and courtesy regardless of rank or status and, if the recipients are wearing the medal, whether or not they are in uniform. This is the only instance where a Soldier will receive a salute from members of a higher rank.

*Where information about having privilege to wear their uniform at any time or place they choose reminds me of the incident with Janacek and White Haven about White Haven wearing his uniform in his presence while on half-pay. That couldn't happen to Sir Horace or Honor. Interesting as well.

*I forget the exact details of that.

http://armylive.dodlive.mil/index.php/2 ... ing-facts/

So I would assume that there is no "cancelling out effect" in effect when two medals are opposite each other. I think the medal itself demands respect, as well as the bearer.

Wasn't it Starship Troopers that said don't ruin a good NCO by trying to make them an officer?

I remember RSM Payne, VC, making it a point to be walking past the base commanders office every time that worthy officer arrived in the morning. (No doubt the gate guards were tipping him off).
I could see Sir Horace doing similar.

Manticoran (upper) society is a lot more hierarchial than that. All the royals, peers, knights and military personnels are listed somewhere, in order of precedence. When everything else comes down to a tie, the final determining factor is date - whom had what earliest is senior.

So the known & living PMV OoP goes: Harkness, Harrington, Terekhov. Indeed, until she'd gotten her PMV for saving Elizabeth and Benjamin, Honor would definitely have been saluting Horace.

Still, given that she holds two feudal titles, a higher knighthood, is a flag officer twice over and not only has one PMV, but also holds two of the Grayson equivalent, the protocolists might prefer that Harkness salutes first.

And Honor has probably made it clear that he's not to bother with such niceties in all but the most formal circumstances, confounding the poor protocolists.

When Harkness meets Terekhov, on the other hand... that's another confusing situation. Both are knights of the same rank IIRC, but Harkness' PMV and knighthood predates Terekhov's.

munroburton wrote:Manticoran (upper) society is a lot more hierarchial than that. All the royals, peers, knights and military personnels are listed somewhere, in order of precedence. When everything else comes down to a tie, the final determining factor is date - whom had what earliest is senior.

So the known & living PMV OoP goes: Harkness, Harrington, Terekhov. Indeed, until she'd gotten her PMV for saving Elizabeth and Benjamin, Honor would definitely have been saluting Horace.

Still, given that she holds two feudal titles, a higher knighthood, is a flag officer twice over and not only has one PMV, but also holds two of the Grayson equivalent, the protocolists might prefer that Harkness salutes first.

And Honor has probably made it clear that he's not to bother with such niceties in all but the most formal circumstances, confounding the poor protocolists.

When Harkness meets Terekhov, on the other hand... that's another confusing situation. Both are knights of the same rank IIRC, but Harkness' PMV and knighthood predates Terekhov's.

Hmm. You make an interesting point. I never considered who should salute first, but that each should indeed salute.

Now you made my original question more complicated.

The entire ordeal threatens a built-in laugh. If, heaven forbid, two recipients enjoy the same date, rank and time of awards.

Maybe it should be handled like two vehicles approaching a signaless intersection. Whoever arrives, wherever they are, first, or whoever is standing more to the right.

When they greet each other...
"After me. No after me. No after me. Ok, you first."

Totally couldn't resist that.

.

Joker41NAM wrote:<snip>

Kytheros wrote:I don't recall the wording we've gotten in text for the PMV

<snip>

From "Ashes of Victory," chapter 10:

Harkness came to attention and started a salute, but Ashford's hand beat him to it. As was only fitting. Anyone who'd won the PMV was entitled to take a salute from anyone who hadn't, and that was one tradition for which the captain felt no resentment at all.

So, I guess that means everyone would salute both of them, and Harkness would salute Honor (who would be saluted by everyone except Caparelli anyhow).

Thank you for the quote.

It implies that Honor isn't required to salute Horace, now that she has a PMV as well. Between his getting a PMV and her getting one, she'd've saluted him for it should they have met (which probably didn't happen many times, he'd've gone back to duty while she went on medical leave).
With the implied leveling of things that wording suggests with both having a PMV, Horace would salute Honor on account of her being a superior officer. At least in public, in private, it is likely that she'd tell him not to bother, pointing at their PMVs.

Joker41NAM wrote:<snip>

Kytheros wrote:
I don't recall the wording we've gotten in text for the PMV

<snip>

From "Ashes of Victory," chapter 10:

Harkness came to attention and started a salute, but Ashford's hand beat him to it. As was only fitting. Anyone who'd won the PMV was entitled to take a salute from anyone who hadn't, and that was one tradition for which the captain felt no resentment at all.

So, I guess that means everyone would salute both of them, and Harkness would salute Honor (who would be saluted by everyone except Caparelli anyhow).

Kytheros wrote:Thank you for the quote.

It implies that Honor isn't required to salute Horace, now that she has a PMV as well. Between his getting a PMV and her getting one, she'd've saluted him for it should they have met (which probably didn't happen many times, he'd've gone back to duty while she went on medical leave).
With the implied leveling of things that wording suggests with both having a PMV, Horace would salute Honor on account of her being a superior officer. At least in public, in private, it is likely that she'd tell him not to bother, pointing at their PMVs.

Yes, thanks for the text, for we were about to beat this horse dead dead. In other words, two opposing medals do have the effect of cancelling each other out, then defaults to rank.

Now. That puts paid to my original question. Next up, is it the same for the US Army Medal of Honor?

See post at top of page.

cthia wrote:The entire ordeal threatens a built-in laugh. If, heaven forbids, two recipients enjoy the same date, rank and time of awards.

Then it is whoever is announced first. Date and time. As happened with Gold Peak and Khumalo's promotions - they made sure Khumalo always went up right before Mike did. For field promotions and the like, the Admiralty may choose to retroactively confirm the dates - or not. This was touched upon in HAE when Honor promoted a bunch of junior enlisted during HMAMC Wayfarer's cruise.

It kind of reflects nature. If twins(or more!) are born, someone's always first out.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:The entire ordeal threatens a built-in laugh. If, heaven forbids, two recipients enjoy the same date, rank and time of awards.

Then it is whoever is announced first. Date and time. As happened with Gold Peak and Khumalo's promotions - they made sure Khumalo always went up right before Mike did. For field promotions and the like, the Admiralty may choose to retroactively confirm the dates - or not. This was touched upon in HAE when Honor promoted a bunch of junior enlisted during HMAMC Wayfarer's cruise.

It kind of reflects nature. If twins(or more!) are born, someone's always first out.

Textev implies that PMVs cancel each other out as regards saluting protocol. There is no "seniority" with PMVs, it's a have/don't have sort of thing.


Promotions, sure, it's date and time, order of promotion being filed/logged/announced, when dealing with those of equal rank, although my understanding is that for most purposes, those of equal rank don't salute each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_C ... privileges

Hold onto your horses! I know Manticore isn't the UK, but it is based upon the UK, making the PMV equivalent to the VC, though both obviously share traits with the US Congressional Medal of Honor as well. So it seems that even the First Space Lord and Admiral of the Fleet would be saluting any recipient of the PMV - unless they had one themselves, of course.

I guarantee you there is a pecking order even amongst medal recipients. It's amazing how precisely the high formal protocolists can quantify the mighty and powerful - for example, at state funerals or royal weddings.

munroburton wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#Authority_and_privileges

Hold onto your horses! I know Manticore isn't the UK, but it is based upon the UK, making the PMV equivalent to the VC, though both obviously share traits with the US Congressional Medal of Honor as well. So it seems that even the First Space Lord and Admiral of the Fleet would be saluting any recipient of the PMV - unless they had one themselves, of course.

I guarantee you there is a pecking order even amongst medal recipients. It's amazing how precisely the high formal protocolists can quantify the mighty and powerful - for example, at state funerals or royal weddings.

Okay, yes, at a formal function where recipients presence is required as living recipients, then there would be some means of differentiation between and organization of the living recipients, if their presence was required in capacities other than as living recipients, it's possible that different rules of precedence would apply.
However, from the textev that we have the PMVs cancel each other out as regards saluting protocols, leaving salutes between living recipients based on their status without the PMV. It is not unreasonable to think that within the living recipient community, similar rules of precedence could apply in other contexts.

One has, the other doesn't? The one with takes precedence.
Both have? Precedence between the two is determined as though neither had it.
One has it, the other (god have mercy on them) got it twice? As though the one with two awards had and the one with only one award didn't.