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How will it work out in Desnair?

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Re: How will it work out in Desnair?
Post by n7axw   » Thu May 14, 2015 7:08 pm

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Louis R wrote:
The real contrast, when you plot merchants vs reformation isn't, as Jeff points out, really Catholic vs Protestant. It's the kind of Protestant: the merchants are most influential in precisely the places that came down on Calvin's side rather than Luther's - the French cantons, Holland, lowland Scotland and bits of England [and, IIRC, the more Huguenot parts of France fit the bill at least somewhat]. Luther and his hierarchical church picked up the slack where princes and nobles mattered - and it was a matter of princely influence. I saw a comment recently to the effect that Luther and the North German princes pulled of their version of the Reformation in large part because it was years before the people down in the parish churches noticed that anything was happening. In fact, judging by some of the music Bach was writing for the Thomaskirche, it was decades before they noticed much beyond the fact that they could now understand what that guy up front was saying. Some Anglicans still haven't noticed ;)



I think there is some truth to this. Lutheranism is not really hierarchial, at least in Germany... But when the fecal matter hit the fan, the princes became important as protection. Eventually this evolved into a situation where the superintendent was appointed by the prince who in turn appointed pastors which was certainly not the original vision of Luther who started out very strong on the notion that congregations should be able to call their own pastors... So you end up with a defacto rather than a theologically formal hierarchy. Sweden, of course, took over the old Catholic structures intact and as a result are much like the Anglicans.

In the areas of Germany where Lutheranism prevailed, it tended to be the faith of the merchants and the princes. The peasantry tended more toward the Anabaptists, especially after Luther's tirade against the peasants during the peasants war in 1525.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: How will it work out in Desnair?
Post by Keith_w   » Thu May 14, 2015 11:27 pm

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n7axw wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:

I'd not count Sweden or Germany as having an especially vibrant merchant class in that era either - certainly not Sweden, probably not Germany. Or Scotland. Venice is just the strongest counter-example.

I'd peg it more, if I needed some general rule, that Catholicism remained in states where the monarchies had a lot of influence/power over the papacy and could use it: France, Spain, the Hapsburg-dominated portions of the HRE, plus Italian city-states under the thumb of one of those or themselves with strong ties to Rome.


General norms do get tough to come by, don't they? I think that Germany's middle class was a bit stronger than you seem to be crediting. I can't really comment on Sweden or Scotland... although it is interesting to note that Presbyterian Scotland tended to be in the lowland areas which were a bit more merchantile oriented, whereas the Highlands remained Catholic. The three areas I was thinking about were Germany, Holland and England when I made my comment.

Buttressing your point, though, when in England Henry VIII decided he needed a divorce, he discovered that he didn't have as much influence as he needed with the Pope, got up one morning and declared, We are Protestants today... That turned into a bit of a bumpy ride for a while.

Don

I don't think that Henry VIII really saw himself or his church as protestants, more like, not ROMAN Catholics anymore. As someone below pointed out, some Anglicans still haven't noticed that services aren't performed in Latin. This is also why Anglican priests can switch over to the Roman Catholic church so easily, and why the Church of England has been having merger conversations with the Church of Rome. FYI, I was raised Anglican.
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Re: How will it work out in Desnair?
Post by n7axw   » Fri May 15, 2015 12:49 am

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Keith_w wrote:
I don't think that Henry VIII really saw himself or his church as protestants, more like, not ROMAN Catholics anymore. As someone below pointed out, some Anglicans still haven't noticed that services aren't performed in Latin. This is also why Anglican priests can switch over to the Roman Catholic church so easily, and why the Church of England has been having merger conversations with the Church of Rome. FYI, I was raised Anglican.


Probably not Protestant at that point in the normal sense, but in the classic sense of the word he was certainly "protesting" and he drove his protest home by rather forcefully taking charge by kicking the pope out and appointing his own Archbishop of Canterbury.... Protestantism in its normal sense probably kicked in in earnest when those refugees from Mary's reign returned home from Geneva with their freshly absorbed Calvinism, thus setting up the Puritan-Cavalier clash.

That being said, it does need to be said that Henry's church does show protestant influence even in its early stages with at least some influence coming from Wittenburg rather than Geneva. Thomas Cranmer's (sp?) Book of Common Prayer displays some of that and I'm sure that that there were other things as well.

Don
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Re: How will it work out in Desnair?
Post by Louis R   » Fri May 15, 2015 3:54 pm

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Cranmer is correct.

The Lutheran influence on Cranmer was considerable - he married the niece of a leader of the Reformation in Nuremburg. While a priest, and before being named Archbishop of Canterbury.

Henry, AFAIK, was quite aware that he was appointing a married man to the Primacy of England. His reforms of the Church of England were probably not just out of expediency, although it's rather obvious he wasn't prepared to go as far in public as Cranmer would have liked.



n7axw wrote:
Keith_w wrote:
I don't think that Henry VIII really saw himself or his church as protestants, more like, not ROMAN Catholics anymore. As someone below pointed out, some Anglicans still haven't noticed that services aren't performed in Latin. This is also why Anglican priests can switch over to the Roman Catholic church so easily, and why the Church of England has been having merger conversations with the Church of Rome. FYI, I was raised Anglican.


Probably not Protestant at that point in the normal sense, but in the classic sense of the word he was certainly "protesting" and he drove his protest home by rather forcefully taking charge by kicking the pope out and appointing his own Archbishop of Canterbury.... Protestantism in its normal sense probably kicked in in earnest when those refugees from Mary's reign returned home from Geneva with their freshly absorbed Calvinism, thus setting up the Puritan-Cavalier clash.

That being said, it does need to be said that Henry's church does show protestant influence even in its early stages with at least some influence coming from Wittenburg rather than Geneva. Thomas Cranmer's (sp?) Book of Common Prayer displays some of that and I'm sure that that there were other things as well.

Don
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