Official HFQ Snippet #24

PeterZ wrote:The seijin were created by awakening dormant memories of existing skills rather than teaching skills the individual does not possess. Nimue the younger learned hand to hand skills through her high speed data port. One assumes the same could be done for the Adams. Obviously for exceptional people like Khody, he is better using the skills and experience of his past life. This might be the determining factor in the chosen method for seijin creation.

Taking this approach would guarantee other memories awakening. Which memories awakening is unknown but that those memories will awaken is a near certainty. The people advocating this strategy must know that this would introduce the concept of a pre Safehold past into Langhorne's perfect creation myth. That would sound intolerably dangerous for anyone truly committed to Langhorne and Bedard's plan of an unassailable false theology.

It strikes me that seijin and the way they were created are the proofs that Langhorne's true believers lost the war of succession.

I think that's not entirely right. PICAs possess something called, IIRC, muscle memory programming. This was what allowed Merlin to learn horse riding and this was how Nimue could learn hand-to-hand so quickly. She both spent time in hyper-heuristic and programmed the results in her PICA's muscle memory.

Cody and others, OTOH, were biological humans, simply implanted with data ports which may or may not have some small data storage (small for TF, of course). It might be that "learning" through NEATs ain't worth a thing without practice, so you could get your mind crammed up to brim with, say, Chinese or muay thai, but unless you practice it, you won't be fluent or good at it. That means that even if seijin-to-be were uploaded with data, they'd still have to find time to train those skills. Time, as Cody's comment in his journal indicates, was not something pro-Langhornites had in abundance.

On the other hand, what they chose to go with is kind of brilliant. By "removing the dampener" on their skills, they:
- got a cadre of people trained by TF;
- had their super-army quickly;
- could make the whole thing look like a divine blessing. Instead of "here's the book on how to do this, learn" (mind-book, but book nevertheless), they went the route of "God Almighty blessed you with the powers, now go smite the unholy". Imagine what it must've looked like to Safeholdians.

As an ending note, Bedard didn't survive. It could be that the people who run the seijinization didn't know about possibility of subject regaining memories other than those the Langhornites wanted them to know. Or they were sure they could prevent this and sweep the entire thing under the rug after the war.

Tonto Silerheels wrote:
(...)

Two, the reversal of fortunes in the war against the fallen is unexplained. Since Kohdy said that things were going badly, we know that things were going badly after the anti-technology group created seijin. Thus, the creation of seijin cannot explain the reversal. And for the same reason, neither can the access to technology.

(...)

~Tonto

Actually, there is a simple, plausible explanation for this. When the decision is made to create seijins, it would be a logical first step to compile a list of the best candidates for the role. And given that Master Sergeant Cody was a Marine close-quarters combat champion and instructor, his name would be at the top of the list, or very close. I believe that Cody was not just any seijin, but perhaps the very first. Not outside the realm of possibility, given that he was certainly "defective" (he started to remember things he shouldn't), which suggests a less-than-perfect creation process with kinks and issues to be sorted out.

If that's the case, then the creation of seijins may have been the factor that reversed the war.

Thoughts, anyone?

peke wrote:

Tonto Silerheels wrote:
(...)

Two, the reversal of fortunes in the war against the fallen is unexplained. Since Kohdy said that things were going badly, we know that things were going badly after the anti-technology group created seijin. Thus, the creation of seijin cannot explain the reversal. And for the same reason, neither can the access to technology.

(...)

~Tonto

Actually, there is a simple, plausible explanation for this. When the decision is made to create seijins, it would be a logical first step to compile a list of the best candidates for the role. And given that Master Sergeant Cody was a Marine close-quarters combat champion and instructor, his name would be at the top of the list, or very close. I believe that Cody was not just any seijin, but perhaps the very first. Not outside the realm of possibility, given that he was certainly "defective" (he started to remember things he shouldn't), which suggests a less-than-perfect creation process with kinks and issues to be sorted out.

If that's the case, then the creation of seijins may have been the factor that reversed the war.

Thoughts, anyone?

As Kakai noted, it could just be that the seijin creation was a hack job, with unforeseen side-effects because the people doing it were not the best at it, trying strange new things with suboptimal gear in a rush.

And if the other side had "demons" who were the counter-parts of seijin (as opposed to "fallen" angels, junior members of the command crew on the other side), then the sheer capability of making seijin/demons would not be the deciding factor.

Kakai wrote:
I think that's not entirely right. PICAs possess something called, IIRC, muscle memory programming. This was what allowed Merlin to learn horse riding and this was how Nimue could learn hand-to-hand so quickly. She both spent time in hyper-heuristic and programmed the results in her PICA's muscle memory.

Cody and others, OTOH, were biological humans, simply implanted with data ports which may or may not have some small data storage (small for TF, of course). It might be that "learning" through NEATs ain't worth a thing without practice, so you could get your mind crammed up to brim with, say, Chinese or muay thai, but unless you practice it, you won't be fluent or good at it. That means that even if seijin-to-be were uploaded with data, they'd still have to find time to train those skills. Time, as Cody's comment in his journal indicates, was not something pro-Langhornites had in abundance.

snip.

This begs the question, were Khody's bosses Langhorne true believers or simply pro-Langhorne? The mashup that was the War Against the Fallen involved many more factions than just pro or con Langhorne. Some elements were pro Shan-wei sure, but these were few and pretty much destroyed as an organized body. The WAtF as I understand it was more a war of succession to take over for Langhorne.

Why then did Khody's faction face steep odds if they were Langhorne true believers? Shan-wie's forces were gutted with the Alexandria strike and Commodore Pei's suicide. The Commodore took a goodly chunk of the command staff with him, but the survivors were more likely than not pro-Langhorne to a large degree.

One explanation is that the faction that gave Khody back his memory was a minor pro-Langhorne group that was not part of the True Believer core of Langhorne supporters. That makes more sense to me than the pro Shan-wei forces coming out of the Alexandria strike and Commodore Pei's nuke dominant over the Langhorne supporters.

It seems to me that the whole notion of the archangels breaking down into complete factionalism which is what seems to be implied here could have, even should have damaged the credibility of the archangels with the Adams and Eves. Managing to debunk the books of Chihiro and Schueler successfully would seem to me to do that with a sizable portion of Safehold's population.

Don

PeterZ wrote:This begs the question, were Khody's bosses Langhorne true believers or simply pro-Langhorne? The mashup that was the War Against the Fallen involved many more factions than just pro or con Langhorne. Some elements were pro Shan-wei sure, but these were few and pretty much destroyed as an organized body. The WAtF as I understand it was more a war of succession to take over for Langhorne.
(snip)

One explanation is that the faction that gave Khody back his memory was a minor pro-Langhorne group that was not part of the True Believer core of Langhorne supporters. That makes more sense to me than the pro Shan-wei forces coming out of the Alexandria strike and Commodore Pei's nuke dominant over the Langhorne supporters.

You made me think... I know our data about the WAtF is a fraction of what happened, but let's consider what factions might've been there. What I've been thinking about is (obviously, this isn't based on any hard or soft facts ):

1. Hardcore Langhornites - true believers, those who wholly supported Langhorne's vision of the universe. Likely used TF tech, passing it off as divine tools, and were against using Adams and Eves in their armies, instead relying on "angels" only.

2. Langhorne supporters - the group you've mentioned above. Agreeing with general tenets of his vision, but more pragmatic. Those were the ones who used seijins, and those were the ones Cody worked for.

3. "Turncoats" - people in command crew who decided that Shan-Wei was right. Might've worked against the command crew from the inside, or defected and were the faction against which the War was fought.

4. Non-supporters - people in command crew who decided that Langhorne was wrong (not the same as 3). Either stayed on the sidelines or fought against, although I think not as much as "turncoats".

5. Remnants - Kau-yung and Shan-wei sympathizers who survived nuke and Alexandria. Likely the least armed and numerous, due to the latter's bombing, but Kau-yung's forces, as someone noted above, might've consisted of many marines, meaning that one-on-one, they'd be the most dangerous.

Cody could, as you suggested, work for 2. In fact, if there were two such factions, I think they'd be allied, as they, of the five, have most common interests. After the war, though, one of them would come to the fore. If it was 1, then it would stand to reason that they would like to get rid of 2's "tech-advanced" aspects - such as seijins. This could explain why they disappeared after war of the Fallen.

Or not. However, as n7axv noted above, knowledge of such factionalism among non-fallen would do wonders to Safeholdians' attitude towards archangels.

(looking up at what she wrote) I have too much time on my hands, don't I?

Kakai wrote:

PeterZ wrote:This begs the question, were Khody's bosses Langhorne true believers or simply pro-Langhorne? The mashup that was the War Against the Fallen involved many more factions than just pro or con Langhorne. Some elements were pro Shan-wei sure, but these were few and pretty much destroyed as an organized body. The WAtF as I understand it was more a war of succession to take over for Langhorne.
(snip)

One explanation is that the faction that gave Khody back his memory was a minor pro-Langhorne group that was not part of the True Believer core of Langhorne supporters. That makes more sense to me than the pro Shan-wei forces coming out of the Alexandria strike and Commodore Pei's nuke dominant over the Langhorne supporters.

You made me think... I know our data about the WAtF is a fraction of what happened, but let's consider what factions might've been there. What I've been thinking about is (obviously, this isn't based on any hard or soft facts ):

1. Hardcore Langhornites - true believers, those who wholly supported Langhorne's vision of the universe. Likely used TF tech, passing it off as divine tools, and were against using Adams and Eves in their armies, instead relying on "angels" only.

2. Langhorne supporters - the group you've mentioned above. Agreeing with general tenets of his vision, but more pragmatic. Those were the ones who used seijins, and those were the ones Cody worked for.

3. "Turncoats" - people in command crew who decided that Shan-Wei was right. Might've worked against the command crew from the inside, or defected and were the faction against which the War was fought.

4. Non-supporters - people in command crew who decided that Langhorne was wrong (not the same as 3). Either stayed on the sidelines or fought against, although I think not as much as "turncoats".

5. Remnants - Kau-yung and Shan-wei sympathizers who survived nuke and Alexandria. Likely the least armed and numerous, due to the latter's bombing, but Kau-yung's forces, as someone noted above, might've consisted of many marines, meaning that one-on-one, they'd be the most dangerous.

Cody could, as you suggested, work for 2. In fact, if there were two such factions, I think they'd be allied, as they, of the five, have most common interests. After the war, though, one of them would come to the fore. If it was 1, then it would stand to reason that they would like to get rid of 2's "tech-advanced" aspects - such as seijins. This could explain why they disappeared after war of the Fallen.

Or not. However, as n7axv noted above, knowledge of such factionalism among non-fallen would do wonders to Safeholdians' attitude towards archangels.

(looking up at what she wrote) I have too much time on my hands, don't I?

There's also another category:
Megalomaniacs - those who initially went along with Langhorne's plan not because they believed in it, but because of the personal advantages it gave them - power, etc. And decided that they liked it, and saw an opportunity to gain more power for themselves after the pocket nuke cleared out most of the competition.

May Sharon keep that hammer cl;ose by and ready. I think she may need it.

Take care of yourself, so you can take care of your family, that should be your first and second priorities.

The rest can wait a while

Kakai wrote:

5. Remnants - Kau-yung and Shan-wei sympathizers who survived nuke and Alexandria. Likely the least armed and numerous, due to the latter's bombing, but Kau-yung's forces, as someone noted above, might've consisted of many marines, meaning that one-on-one, they'd be the most dangerous.

There's something that's been bothering me, and I'm hoping someone on the website can help. I've been discussing Shan-wei's followers and Kau-yung's followers, but I'm not sure you and I and the author mean the same thing when we use those terms. By Shan-wei's followers, I mean the people in the Alexandria enclave, the people in Langhorne's headquarters, and the people scattered abroad who openly supported giving technology to Safehold when the time was ripe. I presume the vast majority of those people were killed when the rakurai struck the Alexandria enclave, or in an assumed mopping up operation in Zion following.

Despite the small number of Shan-wei's followers, I think Kau-yung's followers were fewer. Maybe just himself and Proctor. I reason as follows. There could not have been a great amount of time between the destruction of the Alexandria enclave and the destruction of Langhorne's headquarters. If there were, then Langhorne would never have allowed Kau-yung into his presence. It would have been too risky for Kau-yung to actively oppose Langhorne for a long time because Langhorne would have discovered the deception. So, if Kau-yung decided to destroy Langhorne shortly after the Alexandria destruction he wouldn't have had time to convert his men into active opposition to Langhorne. Remember, ostensibly Kau-yung supported Langhorne, and you can't appear to actively support someone if you suborn one thousand or ten thousand of your most closely trusted men.

When Kau-yung killed himself and Proctor, he may have killed all of his followers. If that's so, then why does the author speak of Kau-yung's followers?

~Tonto

Kytheros wrote:

There's also another category:
Megalomaniacs - those who initially went along with Langhorne's plan not because they believed in it, but because of the personal advantages it gave them - power, etc. And decided that they liked it, and saw an opportunity to gain more power for themselves after the pocket nuke cleared out most of the competition.

Exploring relationship between Chihiro and Schueler may be worthwhile, given Order of Schueler was the warriors and Order of Chihiro was writing the records later and running the palace guard it does make you wonder who made the final changes to the Scripts (i.e. was the book of Schueler written by Chihiro after Schueler was out of the picture).