Official HFQ Snippet #24

Tonto Silerheels wrote:
So I'm inferring Kohdy thought there was a chance the he would get a full answer, a chance to live through it, and that there was one Archangel that he had at least partial trust in.

~Tonto

I had read that snippet and found it hard to reconcile with what came afterward (i.e. what he had learned and how he was being so careful). A "two-faced" Scheuler might account for it.

AirTech wrote:runsforcelery wrote:

“He never wrote down his intentions — unless he did it in Español — but the Sisters’ tradition is that he’d decided to take his questions directly to the Archangel Schueler, the Archangel he most trusted to answer him fully. Whether that’s true or not, he made a final trip to Zion . . . and died there.”

When I was searching for the above snippet for wingfield, I had to adjust my thinking, again. I recall that Kohdy wrote that the fight against Kau-yung's followers was not going well. I also recall that the fight was eventually won, and that seijin always fought on the side of the Light. I leaped to the conclusion that Scheuler's followers came across the idea of creating seijin because the fight wasn't going well, and that creating seijin allowed them to win because, for whatever reason, Kau-yung's followers weren't able to duplicate the feat.

I had to adjust my thinking because near that snippet I found another cite that Kau-yung's followers did have seijin, they just weren't called that. They were called demons instead. So, I'm back to seeing the fight against Kau-yung's followers not going well, but eventually being won, and not knowing why. Did Scheuler just have a better pool of proto-seijin to draw from? Was the fact that the battle wasn't going well unrelated to the creation to seijin? Was I right in the first instance that Kau-yung's followers couldn't create seijin? How have you been imagining the war against the fallen proceeding?

~Tonto

I am not completely sure about the answer to this, but I have the impression that the winning side had full access to the tech base and the losers didn't.


Or perhaps their tech base received a high velocity tap from above once its location was finally known....We do know that a number of kinetic strike took place between Alexandria and the final hit on St. Khody's.[/quote]

mhicks wrote:Plus did the rebels have access to the weapons needed to fight the seijins. the seijins had the air cars, repair ships, sickbays, and battle steel, did the deamons have those too? If the rebels were without all those things they would be fighting with limited resources. Knowing what to do and being able to do it are two different things. The Daemons may have had the upper hand with the surprise of the pocket nuke, but with all the resources the angels had, a few seijins with a lot of fire power could overtake a lot of daemons with primitive weapons

The Peis has managed to squirrel away a considerable amount of equipment ot stach in Nimue's Cave. It is not unreasonable to assume that they had squirreled away more equipment else where that there followers had access to.

Also, if the fighting was between factions of Langhorne followers, then each side should have had pretty much equal access to whatever tech had not already been destroyed (Langhorne would have seen that most of the hi-tech stuff was destroyed, or very safely stored where only the command crew could get at it.

n7axw wrote:

I am not completely sure about the answer to this, but I have the impression that the winning side had full access to the tech base and the losers didn't.

That might explain part of it. I'm trying to put together a chronolog of events, and approximate durations. First, Shan-wei meets with Langhorne at Zion and hints that she's unwilling to accept that Safeholdians will never know their heritage. She then returns to the Alexandria enclave.

Second and shortly after, Langhorne launches a kinetic strike against the Alexandria enclave, killing Shan-wei, and most of the people in Alexandria. The kinetic strike came from an orbital bombardment system that Langhorne caused to be created, hiding it from the head of his own military contingent.

Third, things start to heat up in Zion to the point that it's obvious that there is going to be a struggle between the archangels. Kau-yung responds by setting a number of events in motion, including recording a message to Nimue Alban, and arranging for a wake-up call. Another angel, probably on Langhorne's side, visits a settlement on the Southern shore of Lake Pei to warn of the coming conflict. While there, Kau-yung detonates a nuclear device killing Langhorne, Bédard, and most of Langhorne's other followers, which the angel witnesses.

Fourth, the remnants of the anti-technology group struggle for a period of about eighty years against the remnants of the pro-technology group. The pro-technology group comprises Shan-wei's followers and Kau-yung's followers. Shan-wei's followers are the terraforming people and others were were openly opposed to Langhorne. Kau-yung's followers are military people who, while opposed to Langhorne, ostensibly supported him. The anti-technology group create seijin to help in their struggle. The pro-technology group create demons to help in theirs.

Fifth, the struggle goes badly for the anti-technology group, but something happens allowing them ultimately to win the conflict. The winners 'sanitise' the records, casting the struggle as one of good against evil.

Sixth, with time, all in the anti-technology group die off. The governmental and religious systems they set in place become corrupt.

Seventh, Nimue receives Kau-yung's wake-up call.

I have a few problems with this chronolog. One, how old Kau-yung appeared to be to Nimue. According to this, he was older by the amount of time it took between her personality being recorded until Kau-yung's arrival on Safehold, plus the time to terraform Safehold, plus a small amount of time for the conflict to come to a head. Recall that Kau-yung received anti-gerone treatments, so his physical appearance should advance slowly. It appears to me that the bombing of Zion (now I'm on the NSA's watchlist) had to occur quite a while after the destruction of Alexandria (now I feel as though I'm discussing the relative merits of amillennialism, premillennialism, and postmillennialism).

Two, the reversal of fortunes in the war against the fallen is unexplained. Since Kohdy said that things were going badly, we know that things were going badly after the anti-technology group created seijin. Thus, the creation of seijin cannot explain the reversal. And for the same reason, neither can the access to technology.

Three, in the tradition of Rick Perry, I forget the third thing.

Four, the anti-technology group has access to an orbital bombardment system. The OBS should trump anything the pro-technology group has, unless they have something equivalent in power. They must have, because they have the advantage in the war at some late date despite the pro-technology group's possession of the OBS and seijin, (What's the plural of seijin, anyway?), and because the anti-technology group is forced to increase its defenses during the war.

~Tonto

Tonto Silerheels wrote:I have a few problems with this chronolog. One, how old Kau-yung appeared to be to Nimue. According to this, he was older by the amount of time it took between her personality being recorded until Kau-yung's arrival on Safehold, plus the time to terraform Safehold, plus a small amount of time for the conflict to come to a head.

First, wasn't that "small amount of time" enough time for the original Adams and Eves to have grown grandchildren? We're looking at decades here if not a full century.

Second, Kau-Yung was a senior mission commander as well as (one of) Nimue's mentor. So he wasn't a young man to begin with when he first landed on Safehold. He'd likely been middle aged physically when that happened.

Also, stress (worry, fear, etc) can takes its own aging toll on a person. I imagine that's true even with 300 year expected lifespans.

evilauthor wrote:

First, wasn't that "small amount of time" enough time for the original Adams and Eves to have grown grandchildren? We're looking at decades here if not a full century.

You're right; I had forgotten that. There is some amount of time between the recording of Nimue's personality and when Operation Arc goes into hyperspace--call it a year. Then there were ten years in hyperspace. Then there was the time to search for Safehold--call that a year. Then there was the time to terraform Safehold--call that two years. Then there was the time for the Adams to have children to grow old--call that eighty years. Then my item the first happens. Items the first, second, and third happen very quickly, and there's little time between them, so my estimate is that Kau-yung's age at time of recording was ninety-four years after Nimue had seen him prior to her personality recording, assuming she had seen him shortly before.

Second, Kau-Yung was a senior mission commander as well as (one of) Nimue's mentor. So he wasn't a young man to begin with when he first landed on Safehold. He'd likely been middle aged physically when that happened.

That doesn't really matter because he was already middle aged when Nimue saw him.

Also, stress (worry, fear, etc) can takes its own aging toll on a person. I imagine that's true even with 300 year expected lifespans.

I did consider that, but made my chronolog assuming his apparent age equaled his physical age.

~Tonto

Tonto Silerheels wrote:evilauthor wrote:

First, wasn't that "small amount of time" enough time for the original Adams and Eves to have grown grandchildren? We're looking at decades here if not a full century.

You're right; I had forgotten that. There is some amount of time between the recording of Nimue's personality and when Operation Arc goes into hyperspace--call it a year. Then there were ten years in hyperspace. Then there was the time to search for Safehold--call that a year. Then there was the time to terraform Safehold--call that two years. Then there was the time for the Adams to have children to grow old--call that eighty years. Then my item the first happens. Items the first, second, and third happen very quickly, and there's little time between them, so my estimate is that Kau-yung's age at time of recording was ninety-four years after Nimue had seen him prior to her personality recording, assuming she had seen him shortly before.

Second, Kau-Yung was a senior mission commander as well as (one of) Nimue's mentor. So he wasn't a young man to begin with when he first landed on Safehold. He'd likely been middle aged physically when that happened.

That doesn't really matter because he was already middle aged when Nimue saw him.

Also, stress (worry, fear, etc) can takes its own aging toll on a person. I imagine that's true even with 300 year expected lifespans.

I did consider that, but made my chronolog assuming his apparent age equaled his physical age.

~Tonto

I have the vague feeling that it took quite a bit more than 2 years to do the terraforming... can't quote any textev on that though.

Tonto Silerheels wrote:evilauthor wrote:

First, wasn't that "small amount of time" enough time for the original Adams and Eves to have grown grandchildren? We're looking at decades here if not a full century.

You're right; I had forgotten that. There is some amount of time between the recording of Nimue's personality and when Operation Arc goes into hyperspace--call it a year. Then there were ten years in hyperspace. Then there was the time to search for Safehold--call that a year. Then there was the time to terraform Safehold--call that two years. Then there was the time for the Adams to have children to grow old--call that eighty years. Then my item the first happens. Items the first, second, and third happen very quickly, and there's little time between them, so my estimate is that Kau-yung's age at time of recording was ninety-four years after Nimue had seen him prior to her personality recording, assuming she had seen him shortly before.

Second, Kau-Yung was a senior mission commander as well as (one of) Nimue's mentor. So he wasn't a young man to begin with when he first landed on Safehold. He'd likely been middle aged physically when that happened.

That doesn't really matter because he was already middle aged when Nimue saw him.

Also, stress (worry, fear, etc) can takes its own aging toll on a person. I imagine that's true even with 300 year expected lifespans.

I did consider that, but made my chronolog assuming his apparent age equaled his physical age.

~Tonto

Looking back at Off Armageddon Reef it states in the 'fishing scene' that:

Pei Kau-jung is 190 (standard) years old
There were times when, antiregerone treatments or not, he felt every single day of his hundred and ninety standard years.

You are right about the Breakaway flet remaining in hyper for ten years.

Locating and terraforming however took eight years.
Then they stayed in cryo for another eight standard years, safely tucked away in hiding, while the far less numerous active mission team located their new home world and the terraforming crew prepared it for them.

The time between the arrival of the colonists and the strike was 57 years.
He'd given up the women he loved, both of them had given up the children they might yet have reared, sacrificed fifty-seven years of their lives to a public disagreement, for nothing.

Henry Brown wrote:Thanks for the snippet RFC. Now please take care of yourself.

Them's my sentiments too – I couldn't put it any better.

RFC, great thanks for the snippet! And may I add my wishes for all that's well for you to the ones you already got? Please, take care of yourself.

Tonto Silerheels wrote:
Two, the reversal of fortunes in the war against the fallen is unexplained. Since Kohdy said that things were going badly, we know that things were going badly after the anti-technology group created seijin. Thus, the creation of seijin cannot explain the reversal. And for the same reason, neither can the access to technology. (snip)

Four, the anti-technology group has access to an orbital bombardment system. The OBS should trump anything the pro-technology group has, unless they have something equivalent in power. They must have, because they have the advantage in the war at some late date despite the pro-technology group's possession of the OBS and seijin, (What's the plural of seijin, anyway?), and because the anti-technology group is forced to increase its defenses during the war.

~Tonto

Could it be possible that, instead of being a single, concentrated operation, the pro-tech group operated as kind of disjointed "cells", guerilla units always in movement? The way I see it, the OBS works as a weapon as long as it has something to hit. Unless the intelligence or orbital scans can provide it with data on where the enemy is, it can't hit, and I doubt they would just fire blindly on any suspiciously-looking patch of land. Way to waste shots.

To negate the OBS' striking power, you don't necessarily have to have something to take it out. It's enough not to give it targets. Kau-yung's sympathizers were military; Langhorne's, for all we know, were not. The former likely knew more than a thing about guerilla combat and would, instead of digging themselves somewhere and hold the fort, take the fight behind the enemy lines. It could be that anti-tech group was doing badly because pro-tech were biting bits and chunks from them and they couldn't find them.

The seijin, then, could actually be some kind of a method to counter this, one-man-armies (?) which would track down and destroy the guerilla cells. Perhaps by the time Cody was "seijinized", this effort was still taking its baby steps and it simply took time before the results started to show.

Kakai wrote:RFC, great thanks for the snippet! And may I add my wishes for all that's well for you to the ones you already got? Please, take care of yourself.

Tonto Silerheels wrote:
Two, the reversal of fortunes in the war against the fallen is unexplained. Since Kohdy said that things were going badly, we know that things were going badly after the anti-technology group created seijin. Thus, the creation of seijin cannot explain the reversal. And for the same reason, neither can the access to technology. (snip)

Four, the anti-technology group has access to an orbital bombardment system. The OBS should trump anything the pro-technology group has, unless they have something equivalent in power. They must have, because they have the advantage in the war at some late date despite the pro-technology group's possession of the OBS and seijin, (What's the plural of seijin, anyway?), and because the anti-technology group is forced to increase its defenses during the war.

~Tonto

Could it be possible that, instead of being a single, concentrated operation, the pro-tech group operated as kind of disjointed "cells", guerilla units always in movement? The way I see it, the OBS works as a weapon as long as it has something to hit. Unless the intelligence or orbital scans can provide it with data on where the enemy is, it can't hit, and I doubt they would just fire blindly on any suspiciously-looking patch of land. Way to waste shots.

To negate the OBS' striking power, you don't necessarily have to have something to take it out. It's enough not to give it targets. Kau-yung's sympathizers were military; Langhorne's, for all we know, were not. The former likely knew more than a thing about guerilla combat and would, instead of digging themselves somewhere and hold the fort, take the fight behind the enemy lines. It could be that anti-tech group was doing badly because pro-tech were biting bits and chunks from them and they couldn't find them.

The seijin, then, could actually be some kind of a method to counter this, one-man-armies (?) which would track down and destroy the guerilla cells. Perhaps by the time Cody was "seijinized", this effort was still taking its baby steps and it simply took time before the results started to show.

Very Intresting turn this thread has taken. I would like to point out that although Kau-Yung's people were military, they were TF Navy personnel, not necessarily ground troops, and thus not necessarily any better at ground operations than Langhorneites. And once the Langhornites starting waking up former ground military personnel, such as the Sgt-Major / seijin Kory, the balance would definitely tip in their favour.

An additional question I have is why do space forces always get called navies? Why not (in this case) Terran Federation Space Force? A bit clumsier perhaps, and I realize that, like wet navies, space forces are able to travel vast distances on their own to exert influence and protect commerce but I am pretty sure that Like air forces everywhere that were seen as an adjunct to land forces (US Army Air Force, Royal Flying Corps) they want to be their own creature.