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SNARCS: When to stop using?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: SNARCS: When to stop using?
Post by Kytheros   » Wed May 06, 2015 5:17 pm

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Flanders]
And if people can guess their existence prior to being able to detect them? Or if some noble in Chisholm asks during their trial how the crown obtained evidence they couldn't of had save from the seijin network? Some of the legal authorities turn a blind eye or look the other way, but it wouldn't be described as them doing so if they didn't recognize there was some level of privacy that was being transgressed.

Merlin doesn't like to lie to people. I would imagine he doesn't like others to lie in his place either. So if questions are raised about the "how" at some point, then either the truth is told or an equivalent of pleading the fifth would be. Unless there are changes to Merlin's inherent character.[/quote]

[quote="Isilith wrote:
Have you not noticed how the people of Safehold BELIEVE in Seijins? Note how characters that are very intelligent, and well educated, have automatically believed in the Seijin's reports.

Also, how in heck do you think a people with this level of technology would even begin to theorize the existence of something like a SNARC? To them, Seijins are the "logical" answer. And everyone knows Seijins are mysterious, secretive, and can do things no human could do. All of which "explains" how they were found out.

Now, to add to that, the "Seijin" network has never given evidence that wouldn't be corroborated by physical evidence, or the authorities sent to where physical evidence would be found.

As to your "Merlin's character, and doesn't lie" point... that is true, but only to a point. If you remember, the note from Zebediah instructing his agent to give rifles to the conspirators in Corisande. Merlin was fulling willing to produce a perfect copy of that letter, forged by OWL, if made necessary by the earl destroying it.

Regarding the not lying and the forgery bit ... the modern analogy would be somebody having scanned documents before they were destroyed to hide evidence, and then reprinting the documents.

It's not that Merlin would have outright lied, he'd've lied by omission, saying something like "this letter was sent by Zebediah to his Corisandian co-conspirators", omitting the fact that this particular sheet of paper is a perfect copy. Merlin would have said "the Earl thought he kept the letter securely in his safe", leaving the impression that the seijin network of spies had stolen the original.
He'd've let it be assumed that it was the original, rather than a copy, perhaps going so far as to deliberately leave the impression that it was the original, but not actually saying that it was.
After all, nobody is going to challenge its authenticity - as far as anybody can tell and knows it is the original (with the exception of the guy who burned it, and he's hardly going to say "that can't be the original because I burned it"), and if someone asks Merlin point blank about how he got it, all Merlin needs to do is make sure keep his statements and phrasing sufficiently oblique to deceive without lying.
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Re: SNARCS: When to stop using?
Post by Keith_w   » Wed May 06, 2015 5:28 pm

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wingfield wrote:
Keith_w wrote:
Merlin's goal is not to recreate a democracy it is to prepare Safehold to meet and defeat the Gbaba, so he may be perfectly OK with not introducing a constitution per se. After all, Britain doesn't have one and it gets along quite well, for the most part.


The United Kingdom (Britain) most assuredly has a "constitution" but it is not written down all in the one place and so it does not really have a capital "C". It is the world's best example of an "unwritten" constitution.


My apologies, I should have said "written".
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A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: SNARCS: When to stop using?
Post by MTO   » Wed May 06, 2015 6:40 pm

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I'm going to have to dig for a specific reference, but clearly recall that they never acted only on the info they got from the snarcs, they always used it to help them find more evidence by more conventional methods.

Also, this is only a domestic problem. As far as foreign targets go... In war, if it doesn't feel like you're cheating, you're doing it wrong.
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Re: SNARCS: When to stop using?
Post by Isilith   » Wed May 06, 2015 7:32 pm

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MTO wrote:I'm going to have to dig for a specific reference, but clearly recall that they never acted only on the info they got from the snarcs, they always used it to help them find more evidence by more conventional methods.

Also, this is only a domestic problem. As far as foreign targets go... In war, if it doesn't feel like you're cheating, you're doing it wrong.



In Basic Training, our DI's routinely told us; If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough!!!
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Re: SNARCS: When to stop using?
Post by Randomiser   » Thu May 07, 2015 7:03 pm

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MTO wrote:I'm going to have to dig for a specific reference, but clearly recall that they never acted only on the info they got from the snarcs, they always used it to help them find more evidence by more conventional methods.

Also, this is only a domestic problem. As far as foreign targets go... In war, if it doesn't feel like you're cheating, you're doing it wrong.


You are quite right, Seijin evidence has never been used in a trial, neither has SNARC evidence. They never will. Just because they would expose too much and wouldn't be admissazble. SNARC intelligence has always been used to point the authorities in the right direction and clue them in to where to find incontrovertible physical evidence. The prosecutors will never have to reveal where their intelligence came from in court, 'as a result of confidential information we found this' will always be sufficient. It's not as if it's ever going to be hard to get a search warrant on the basis of SNARC evidence in the EoC, after all. :D
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Re: SNARCS: When to stop using?
Post by Randomiser   » Fri May 08, 2015 6:43 am

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When to stop? When you no longer have enemies publicly inciting insurrection and plotting assassinations and aren't fighting a war. So a fair while yet.
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Re: SNARCS: When to stop using?
Post by peke   » Fri May 08, 2015 8:46 am

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The points about privacy are important, I think. We all live in a world where Big Brother is almost everywhere, so we are used to this issue coming up every now and then. Safeholdians don't have the context to realize the importance of privacy, because it's "easy" for them to achieve it: a closed room without windows, and voila: reasonable, affordable privacy. The issue will grow in importance along with the sophistication of eavesdropping techniques.

I think the stopping point would be when people start voicing concern over the government's - and powerful citizen's - powers regarding surveillance of private activities. When people, by themselves begin realizing the importance of privacy, and raising concerns over the issue, that would be the point to start restricting the use of SNARCS to activities which don't impinge on those newly-founded privacy laws and regulations. Even if the technology employed by the SNARCS is light-years beyond anything envisioned by these laws. It wouldn't do, after all, if years down the road some busybody started digging and found out that the capabilities offered by the SNARCS were used to silently circumvent the law. Remember, never give up the moral high ground!
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There is no problem so complex that it cannot be solved through the judicious application of high-power explosives.
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Re: SNARCS: When to stop using?
Post by SYED   » Sat May 09, 2015 12:39 am

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It will be a while before they stop using them. but they might consider begining some anti snarc measures soon, just in case they face an enemy with access to them. Wee know that the temple was able to pull it of in some respects.
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Re: SNARCS: When to stop using?
Post by captinjoehenry   » Wed May 27, 2015 1:21 pm

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well as it stands from what i recall the textev seems to suggest that the SNARCs are only being used to spy on known enemies of the state or traitors not on everyday citizens so the best comparison would be to camera system in UK and that seems to be the model that they are following as most of the footage is only recorded and only when the footage contains keywords does a human or a personality recording view it. It has also been stated several times in the first couple of books that Merlin has safeguards in place to ensure peoples privacy.

All in all they are probably following a policy similar to the UKs stand on mass surveillance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surve ... ed_Kingdom
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