SNARCS: When to stop using?

I searched for a quite awhile before posting (hate to make poor first impression) and I didn't find anything along these lines, but if I am in error I apologize for thread duplication.

At some point, will Merlin or Nimue in particular, but perhaps others of the inner circle stop using the SNARCS for anything more invasive than say, weather monitoring and communication between members?

I am framing this question with one major caveat that I'd ask you to keep in mind though: This would be after the OBS has been neutralized The reason for the caveat is after that point, Charis (or any other proxy states that Merlin or Nimue encourage) could develop without fear of OBS retaliation. Granted, the Great Reveal might hinder how quickly they can do so without people retaliating, but that's not quite the same threat level.

My point is that if those influenced by Saint Zherneau truly want to follow things like the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the Terran Federation it would seem to me they would be opposed to the violation of individual freedoms by the SNARCS. Shouldn't they have any pangs of conscience about using the SNARCS on the level of a police state? At some point, their espoused ethical framework should make them more reluctant to use them as pervasively as they are, correct? Or will it be an argument of "just until the crisis is over..." from "not until after the Great Reveal" to "after we get back into orbit" to "but the Gbaba..." etc.

That is assuming that they want to follow those things. Recognizing that RFC is an American and probably loves the US Constitution, the constitution of the US and thus the US Bill of rights may not be appropriate for Safehold. Charis is not a constitutional democracy, as is mentioned in the book. Parliament gets a say but the king gets to rule.
Merlin's goal is not to recreate a democracy it is to prepare Safehold to meet and defeat the Gbaba, so he may be perfectly OK with not introducing a constitution per se. After all, Britain doesn't have one and it gets along quite well, for the most part. Canada's starts out talking about Peace, Order and Good Government, which is expressing extremely high hopes, especially the latter part

We don't know what was in the TF's constitution, if indeed it even had one. For all we know it expressly required that all citizens be monitored 24 hours a day by big sibling.

Keith_w wrote:
Merlin's goal is not to recreate a democracy it is to prepare Safehold to meet and defeat the Gbaba, so he may be perfectly OK with not introducing a constitution per se. After all, Britain doesn't have one and it gets along quite well, for the most part.

The United Kingdom (Britain) most assuredly has a "constitution" but it is not written down all in the one place and so it does not really have a capital "C". It is the world's best example of an "unwritten" constitution.

Keith_w wrote:That is assuming that they want to follow those things.

King Haarahld referenced the abolition of serfdom as "the right thing to do" and also supported a more representative parliament then many of the other ones around Safehold.

Howsymn is known for being very supportive of his workersbith in terms of pay, safetyt on the job, living conditions, etc. He in particular rails against those who don't and views what he does as "the right thing to do".

I'm not saying that all these charcters will turn into proponents of democracy overnight,(Merlin reflected the croan had far more authority than the Terran historical counterparts) but the attitudes listed above would imply monitoring by SNARCs without limit might rub some of them the wrong way, wouldn't you think?

Flanders wrote:

Keith_w wrote:That is assuming that they want to follow those things.

King Haarahld referenced the abolition of serfdom as "the right thing to do" and also supported a more representative parliament then many of the other ones around Safehold.

Howsymn is known for being very supportive of his workersbith in terms of pay, safetyt on the job, living conditions, etc. He in particular rails against those who don't and views what he does as "the right thing to do".

I'm not saying that all these charcters will turn into proponents of democracy overnight,(Merlin reflected the croan had far more authority than the Terran historical counterparts) but the attitudes listed above would imply monitoring by SNARCs without limit might rub some of them the wrong way, wouldn't you think?

Maybe. Probably. But a distinction can be drawn between a commitment to rights to political participation, appropriate pay, safe working conditions, practical access to education, freedom of conscience - and a commitment to privacy. Even granting Charis' Inner Circle all of the former (and we should), they may not feel much of the latter.

I suspect they do and that indefinite maintenance of a surveillance state isn't going to sit well, but I'm not making any bets on when that will translate into putting SNARC's on the shelf or how far back on it.

Frankly, the time to "stop" using SNARCs is the time when Safehold becomes advanced enough to start detecting them. Because if they get detected, then whoever's using them is going to have to answer some uncomfortable questions.

At a minimum, OBS and the Temple must be neutralized, the truth must be revealed, and any problems arising from that (Safehold War II?) must be resolved, so that all the population starts seriously returning into space and getting ready for the Gbaba.

We can talk about individual freedoms all day long, but the truth is, if even a small Gbaba fleet - heck, just a single ship - finds Safehold before the people are ready for that - the human race will be exterminated.

Merlin & Co simply cannot afford to waste any time. If a war can be resolved in 5 years, they cannot afford to stretch it to 10.

Needs must when the devil drives, for now at least.

evilauthor wrote:Frankly, the time to "stop" using SNARCs is the time when Safehold becomes advanced enough to start detecting them. Because if they get detected, then whoever's using them is going to have to answer some uncomfortable questions.

Whole lotta truth in this post.

Isilith wrote:

evilauthor wrote:Frankly, the time to "stop" using SNARCs is the time when Safehold becomes advanced enough to start detecting them. Because if they get detected, then whoever's using them is going to have to answer some uncomfortable questions.

Whole lotta truth in this post.

And if people can guess their existence prior to being able to detect them? Or if some noble in Chisholm asks during their trial how the crown obtained evidence they couldn't of had save from the seijin network? Some of the legal authorities turn a blind eye or look the other way, but it wouldn't be described as them doing so if they didn't recognize there was some level of privacy that was being transgressed.

Merlin doesn't like to lie to people. I would imagine he doesn't like others to lie in his place either. So if questions are raised about the "how" at some point, then either the truth is told or an equivalent of pleading the fifth would be. Unless there are changes to Merlin's inherent character.

Flanders wrote:And if people can guess their existence prior to being able to detect them? Or if some noble in Chisholm asks during their trial how the crown obtained evidence they couldn't of had save from the seijin network? Some of the legal authorities turn a blind eye or look the other way, but it wouldn't be described as them doing so if they didn't recognize there was some level of privacy that was being transgressed.

Merlin doesn't like to lie to people. I would imagine he doesn't like others to lie in his place either. So if questions are raised about the "how" at some point, then either the truth is told or an equivalent of pleading the fifth would be. Unless there are changes to Merlin's inherent character.

Have you not noticed how the people of Safehold BELIEVE in Seijins? Note how characters that are very intelligent, and well educated, have automatically believed in the Seijin's reports.

Also, how in heck do you think a people with this level of technology would even begin to theorize the existence of something like a SNARC? To them, Seijins are the "logical" answer. And everyone knows Seijins are mysterious, secretive, and can do things no human could do. All of which "explains" how they were found out.

Now, to add to that, the "Seijin" network has never given evidence that wouldn't be corroborated by physical evidence, or the authorities sent to where physical evidence would be found.

As to your "Merlin's character, and doesn't lie" point... that is true, but only to a point. If you remember, the note from Zebediah instructing his agent to give rifles to the conspirators in Corisande. Merlin was fully willing to produce a perfect copy of that letter, forged by OWL, if made necessary by the earl destroying it.

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