How much of Humanity needs to return to the stars?

Given there are some eventual generation jumps planned for the series, eventually some portion of humanity will return to stars. Does it have to be all of humanity though? Will there be a Safehold Federation that encompasses all of Safehold, or will it only be the portion that embraces the truth of humanity's past? If there are not only pockets of "temple loyalists" (not sure what term RFC may eventually use) but even minor or not so minor nations that insist on discounting all of the technological advancements and live as the Writ commands, would they be forced to adopt otherwise?

While I would imagine that so long as they allow those that wish to leave and "follow Shan-Wei" the Safehold Federation wouldn't force them into a government or system they want no part of, would they allow them do so?

In a more concrete hypothetical, say three, four generations from now, would a Safehold Federation insist that a Greentree Island, Duchy of Fallos, Kingdom of Sodar or a Border state (assuming they still remain intact and independent that long) be allowed to opt out, or would they have to be part of the Federation? Granted they may have no military chance of survival whatsoever, but if they don't pose a military threat, wouldn't a nearly-worldwide government prevent those who have embraced tech from conquering those that choose to abstain?

Flanders wrote:Given there are some eventual generation jumps planned for the series, eventually some portion of humanity will return to stars. Does it have to be all of humanity though? Will there be a Safehold Federation that encompasses all of Safehold, or will it only be the portion that embraces the truth of humanity's past? If there are not only pockets of "temple loyalists" (not sure what term RFC may eventually use) but even minor or not so minor nations that insist on discounting all of the technological advancements and live as the Writ commands, would they be forced to adopt otherwise?

While I would imagine that so long as they allow those that wish to leave and "follow Shan-Wei" the Safehold Federation wouldn't force them into a government or system they want no part of, would they allow them do so?

In a more concrete hypothetical, say three, four generations from now, would a Safehold Federation insist that a Greentree Island, Duchy of Fallos, Kingdom of Sodar or a Border state (assuming they still remain intact and independent that long) be allowed to opt out, or would they have to be part of the Federation? Granted they may have no military chance of survival whatsoever, but if they don't pose a military threat, wouldn't a nearly-worldwide government prevent those who have embraced tech from conquering those that choose to abstain?

I don't see a net benefit in forcing people to use technologies. It does seem perverse to reject them. Continued adherence to Langhorne's Proscriptions may explain that, but it'll be mighty perverse to maintain that adherence long after the Reveal.

So - I suspect it will be a non-issue. If it did get to a point where 10% of Safehold is supposed to restore and advance a Terran Federation tech base, build and crew a navy, and find and stop the Gbaba, while 90% clutch their Inquisitors, fabricated history and mules and condemn the 10% to eternal hellfire... then some more forcible re-adjustments may look a whole lot better.

Flanders wrote:Does it have to be all of humanity though? Will there be a Safehold Federation that encompasses all of Safehold, or will it only be the portion that embraces the truth of humanity's past?

I don't know what percentage of the population will actively support expansion into space and preparation to fight the Gbaba. I do think that economic pressure will lead most of Safehold to embrace technology, though. There will be a few "Luddites" and "Amish" who reject technology, but they will be largely marginalized.

Weird Harold wrote:

Flanders wrote:Does it have to be all of humanity though? Will there be a Safehold Federation that encompasses all of Safehold, or will it only be the portion that embraces the truth of humanity's past?

I don't know what percentage of the population will actively support expansion into space and preparation to fight the Gbaba. I do think that economic pressure will lead most of Safehold to embrace technology, though. There will be a few "Luddites" and "Amish" who reject technology, but they will be largely marginalized.

Amish don't reject technology. They reject connections to the world at large. They have no problems using air compressors and pneumatic tools. The issue with the Amish is that salvation depends on their communities reinforcing their faith by sticking together and rejecting the distractions of the world.

It is that mindset that Safehold needs. Technology isn't evil per se. Technology at some high enough merely facilitates the distractions away from God. Guard against those distractions and one might well still live in harmony with God while using technology.

Amish don't reject technology. They reject connections to the world at large. They have no problems using air compressors and pneumatic tools. The issue with the Amish is that salvation depends on their communities reinforcing their faith by sticking together and rejecting the distractions of the world.

It is that mindset that Safehold needs. Technology isn't evil per se. Technology at some high enough merely facilitates the distractions away from God. Guard against those distractions and one might well still live in harmony with God while using technology.[/quote]

Certainly, that would be the hopeful middle path for a reformed church.

But there may well be those who choose to follow the Writ as is and insist those who do not are liars or tempted by Shan Wei. Yes, they likely will be marganilized, and frequently losing portions of each new generation that decide to disagree and leave those communities.

Do they get their own enclave where they currently are if they can get enough people together for a functioning community? Do you resettle them to an undersettled island? Or perhaps another realm somewhere that embraces that view at a national level and encourages all "true beleivers" to emigrate tthere?

I think that how much technology the Amish use depends on which sect one looks at. I spent some time camping and hiking in Pennsylvania Dutch country and they went around in a horse and buggy. No motorized vehicles allowed. No electricity was allowed in the barn or the house but they used motorized hay balers. Just the baler portion though, the mowers and rakes were all horse drawn. So,the milk had to be collected every day because they had no pasteurization or refrigeration. The state of PA helped them out by passing a law that prohibited semis from the back roads on Sundays thus forcing them to throw away one days production of milk every week. I sent my daughter to a Quaker High school in eastern Ohio which was very close to another Amish community. These people allowed electricity and drove vehicles. I canoed the Unadilla river in upper central New York and while looking for a place to take out the canoe and park the car came across what, from the outside looked like and was advertised by its sign as a Hardware store. I went inside to get permission to leave the car in the parking lot and felt as if I had stepped into an alternate universe. No electric lights, no electric anything. The place was chock full of railroad lanterns, sickles hand mowing equipment kitchen implements and other stuff I had before only seen in a museum for mid 1800 farming and rural life or on TV. I thought that was what it was but when my eyes adjusted to the dark somewhat I noticed that all of the stuff was brand new. so I concluded that this was another strict sect of then Amish communit

PeterZ wrote:Amish don't reject technology.

I used "Amish" because of the stereotype of an Amish Farmer and His Horse-drawn Buggy. I could have used "Taliban" as the secondary stereotype, but would have gotten the same complaint.

FWIW, the Luddites didn't reject technology completely, either; they just rejected the technology that stole their jobs.

Flanders wrote:Does it have to be all of humanity though? Will there be a Safehold Federation that encompasses all of Safehold, or will it only be the portion that embraces the truth of humanity's past?

Given the opposition from the Gbaba, once space flight is reestablished I would think it wise to dispatch a couple of fleets in the opposite direction with the same instructions as the Safehold fleet - run and hide for 500 years. Then make provision for a broadcast all clear or dig a deeper hole signal running behind. (Hiding would probably involve a trip of at least 5000 light years).
(Based on current survey data, habitable (by humans at least) planets are thin on the ground since gas giants and oversize rocky worlds (generally referred to as super earths but super Venus's are probably more likely) seem far more common in inner solar systems,and a hot Jupiter would preclude an adjacent earth sized body other than as a satellite).
The solar system we live in appears to be an incredibly rare configuration, and Earth itself, with a moon larger than most others in the system is in itself a truly weird configuration. (Theoretical models suggest that the earth should be an asteroid belt under most configurations). Without the moon, the earth probably wouldn't have life as tidal movements of water would be absent and without the injection of heavy metals during the formation of the earth-moon system we wouldn't have a mobile crust or a significant magnetic field (and the atmosphere that is retained by that).
The next step would be a fleet to establish a forward operating base. The most reactionary groups would be candidates for the back stop fleets going to hide.

The reactionaries are the last people you want to send off to hide. The second last thing you want in such a colony is a second Safehold experience where they try to bury technology forever in Langhorne's name.

All of it! As soon as possible!!

Seriously though, I suspect there will be a minority that will hang on to their faith in Langhorne and His Holy Church, despite the Reveal. It will probably be a sizable minority, and it will probably be allowed to hold on to its beliefs, perhaps even allowed to form their little own country of True Believers That Will Be Spared When Langhorne Returns To Punish The Heretics.

In this scenario, however, it's almost certain that this sect will in time give birth to a militant fundamentalist branch, much like our own Earth-grown Islam radicals.

Maybe they'll even outlaw graphical depictions of Lanhorne's visage .