Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: penny and 39 guests

long range laser

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: long range laser
Post by Rakhmamort   » Wed May 06, 2015 5:46 am

Rakhmamort
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:23 am

Relax wrote:
Rakhmamort wrote:One can predict where the towing ships would be.


No you can't. In a perfect universe you could. Your sensors are not perfect. Your electro/mechanical mechs are not perfect. Everything has slop. Everything has errors.

Error bands will decree by fiat that you do not know where they are when in relation to the size of the laser beam. Pretty bad when the laser beam is smaller than the error band. Have not even thrown in timing error band addition or Laser aiming error band addition.

In short it is amazing they hit anything at a LS, let alone greater distances.


Yes you can. Otherwise, the hit ratio of your missile laser heads would far far lower than what they are. If you can do it when the enemy ships are doing their damnedest best to evade your missiles, then you can certainly do it when it's not even doing a lot of evasive actions.
Top
Re: long range laser
Post by SWM   » Wed May 06, 2015 8:56 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

cthia wrote:
Relax wrote:Yes, crystal lattice structure can help up to a point, but only a point. The material has to withstand the stress. Yes, STRESS, of physically pushing the beam where you are trying to aim it. Combine that with the fact that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is undefeated, and one generates HEAT. This heat must be carried away. If it is not, the lens will not function. In fact it can melt down or even shatter if too cold/hot. No, I am certainly no expert, but I know personally(brother in law among them) the guys creating the next generation laser working and they are only trying to funnel 50kW through. This is running on the ragged edge of what we can produce which coincidentally is not far from theoretical max.

Lets do some simple WAG's on the Crystal stress for a 50kW laser. If one converts the 50kW into HP(75hp) and then into ft-lbs(550X75=41,000ft-lbs) of torque. With a lens of an inch or two. We are talking MASSIVE stress. Most lenses the guys tried simply shattered quite explosively.

Cooling is done via cryogenics combined with running an electrical current THROUGH the lens itself. Gets back to lattice structure to allow this cooling... 8-) 8-) 8-) Way cool stuff.

And yes, obviously aperture can help TOTAL power through etc. It is the reason it took a 747 to fly such a huge aperture laser previously, and the 50kW baby these guys are running is over 100X the same throughput density. A tiny version of it is being "tested" on a navy ship. Not sure why other than for operation maintenance requirements for future design. Maybe they can practice taking out sea gulls... Keep them from pooping all over their ship. The crew will love it, less sea gull $### to scrub off... Can't be used for anything else, but anti sea gull bombing patrol seems needed on our navy ships...

Yes it is. Way cool stuff.

But you are still making an erroneous assumption. That Honorverse materials, mined from some far away asteroid family, will have the same "limits" and properties and potential as Sol system materials.

Materials. Materials. Materials. We often laugh about handwavium, but a material - or yet unknown element(s) to the Sol system - of another birth star will smell sweeter than our own. And burn cooler.

Consider theoretical metals a thousand times stronger than steel yet approaching weightlessness. Remember the movie "Predator?"

My lower junior year Engineering professor, "Strength of Materials" once said to us "A good engineer understands the limits of his materials. The best engineer understands that the limit is the materials. The successful engineer designs in or designs out the limits of the materials by removing the limits of the mind. The one that gets the job is neither. The hire goes to the dyslexic engineer that sees no limits, named TIM. MIT."

Or something like that.

Cthia, it doesn't matter. We already know that Honorverse is not using physical lenses for grasers--they are using gravitic lenses which can be manipulated as much as you want. There is no need to hypothesize fantastical materials. But it doesn't remove the limitations David has already explained to us.

(And I believe you mean "hypothetical metals", not "theoretical metals", because there are no theoretical materials with the properties you mention.)
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: long range laser
Post by Bill Woods   » Wed May 06, 2015 10:00 am

Bill Woods
Captain of the List

Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:39 pm

Rakhmamort wrote:One can predict where the towing ships would be.
Relax wrote: No you can't. In a perfect universe you could. Your sensors are not perfect. Your electro/mechanical mechs are not perfect. Everything has slop. Everything has errors.

Error bands will decree by fiat that you do not know where they are when in relation to the size of the laser beam. Pretty bad when the laser beam is smaller than the error band. Have not even thrown in timing error band addition or Laser aiming error band addition.

In short it is amazing they hit anything at a LS, let alone greater distances.
Rakhmamort wrote: Yes you can. Otherwise, the hit ratio of your missile laser heads would far far lower than what they are. If you can do it when the enemy ships are doing their damnedest best to evade your missiles, then you can certainly do it when it's not even doing a lot of evasive actions.
A laser head's range isn't anything like a light-second.
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
Top
Re: long range laser
Post by Joat42   » Thu May 07, 2015 10:58 am

Joat42
Admiral

Posts: 2162
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:01 am
Location: Sweden

A question regarding lensing grasers:

Why can't part of the lensing be done with phased emitters (like in phased radar arrays)?

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
Top
Re: long range laser
Post by Grashtel   » Thu May 07, 2015 11:49 am

Grashtel
Captain of the List

Posts: 449
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:59 am

Joat42 wrote:A question regarding lensing grasers:

Why can't part of the lensing be done with phased emitters (like in phased radar arrays)?

It can in theory, getting them properly phaselocked with wavelengths smaller than an atom is a rather large problem though with the emitters needing to be kept perfectly stable and chilled down to virtually absolute zero for it to work.
Top
Re: long range laser
Post by Relax   » Thu May 07, 2015 3:03 pm

Relax
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3214
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:18 pm

Joat42 wrote:A question regarding lensing grasers:

Why can't part of the lensing be done with phased emitters (like in phased radar arrays)?


Lens requirements remain the same. What do you think we are doing today? :roll: It is the only way we are obtaining the power levels we are currently. Multispectrum frequency and opposing phase are being pumped through a lens. Each frequency interacts differently with Bragg filters etc and ultimately the lens in question. Combined via prism. Literally.

The problem with gamma ray is that no physical material actually interacts with said high frequency. It just passes through and if such a ray DOES hit a nucleus, bad things happen. KABOOM things due to heating as the gamma rays energy level is beyond the nucleus bond energy level. So, while it may be possible to build a gamma ray lens, it is going to be a one use deal.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
Top
Re: long range laser
Post by cthia   » Thu May 07, 2015 4:41 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

No need for anyone to throw me a bone. I was taught to build dinosaurs without them, with paper - remembering that paper is just wood.

I am not making this clear. I see no limits in the materials, only a limit in our minds, therefore in our "methods." Materials and methods. Materials and methods.

Flashback to the 80's, actually it began in the 70's, the worry about the theoretical limit regarding IC (integrated circuit) densities. In 1965 Moore's Law predicted the doubling of the amount of transistors on an IC every year. In 1970 he revised that estimate to every two years which has held true even now. Because of that prediction, it was predicted that the technology would hit a wall because of the physical limitations of it. Just how small would we be able to make transistors before "small enough isn't good enough?" Well, that first wall was predicted in the 90's. Then 2000, then 2013 it was expected to slow considerably. It hasn't.

Back around the middle of 2000 a French company funded projects to push back the limits of miniaturization of semiconductors, in 2006 creating the 45 nm fabrication technology.

In 2007 the company was working on developing 32nm and even 22nm nodes. Developing even smaller transistors would have been a boon to business, but many naysayers thought it to be wasted R&D because 32nm scale is highly affected by quantum mechanical effects. But the company persevered and in their research solved the problem regarding the reduction of the current leakage at the logic gate, by using hafnium based insulators rather than the traditional approach of using silicon dioxide.

Materials and methods. We are not limited by our materials, but by our minds, in not yielding the proper methods. Besides the imminent limitations implied by Moore's Law, computer technology is also threatened by the *Beckenstein bound. Which is also an important aspect in my study of black holes.

My point is that human resourcefulness is only limited by the human mind. Materials and methods.

The resourceful engineer does not aim to defeat the second law of thermodynamics. He simply erects scaffolding about it and designs around it.



****** *



In January 1995, the Digital Alpha 21164 microprocessor had 9.3 million transistors. This 64-bit processor was a technological spearhead at the time, even if the circuit's market share remained average. Six years later, a state of the art microprocessor contained more than 40 million transistors. It is theorised that, with further miniaturisation, by 2015 these processors should contain more than 15 billion transistors, and by 2020 will be in molecular-scale production, where each molecule can be individually positioned.

In 2003, Intel predicted the end would come between 2013 and 2018 with 16 nanometer manufacturing processes and 5 nanometer gates, due to quantum tunnelling, although others suggested chips could just get larger, or become layered.[72] In 2008 it was noted that for the last 30 years, it has been predicted that Moore's law would last at least another decade.

Some see the limits of the law as being in the distant future. Lawrence Krauss and Glenn D. Starkman announced an ultimate limit of approximately 600 years in their paper,[73] based on rigorous estimation of total information-processing capacity of any system in the Universe, which is limited by the Bekenstein bound. On the other hand, based on first principles, there are predictions that Moore's law will collapse in the next few decades [20–40 years]".

*Bekenstein bound
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
In physics, the Bekenstein bound is an upper limit on the entropy S, or information I, that can be contained within a given finite region of space which has a finite amount of energy—or conversely, the maximum amount of information required to perfectly describe a given physical system down to the quantum level.[1] It implies that the information of a physical system, or the information necessary to perfectly describe that system, must be finite if the region of space and the energy is finite. In computer science, this implies that there is a maximum information-processing rate (Bremermann's limit) for a physical system that has a finite size and energy, and that a Turing machine with finite physical dimensions and unbounded memory is not physically possible.

Origins
Bekenstein derived the bound from heuristic arguments involving black holes. If a system exists that violates the bound, i.e. by having too much entropy, Bekenstein argued that it would be possible to violate the second law of thermodynamics by lowering it into a black hole. In 1995, Ted Jacobson demonstrated that the Einstein field equations (i.e., general relativity) can be derived by assuming that the Bekenstein bound and the laws of thermodynamics are true.[5][6] However, while a number of arguments have been devised which show that some form of the bound must exist in order for the laws of thermodynamics and general relativity to be mutually consistent, the precise formulation of the bound has been a matter of debate.

Examples:
Black holes
It happens that the Bekenstein-Hawking Entropy of three-dimensional black holes exactly saturates the bound. The bound is closely associated with black hole thermodynamics, the holographic principle and the covariant entropy bound of quantum gravity, and can be derived from a conjectured strong form of the latter.

Human brain
An average human brain has a mass of 1.5 kg and a volume of 1260 cm³. If the brain is approximated by a sphere then the radius will be 6.7 cm.
The informational Bekenstein bound will and represents the maximum information needed to perfectly recreate an average human brain down to the quantum level. This means that the number of states of the human brain must be less than...

The existence of the Bekenstein bound implies that the storage capacity of human brain is finite, although potentially very large, if constrained only by ultimate physical limits. This makes mind uploading possible from the point of view of quantum mechanics, provided that physicalism is true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bekenstein_bound
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law

I do not see the second law of thermodynamics as a STOP sign.
I do not see the Beckenstein bound as a STOP sign.

They are merely Yield signs.


I am not arguing the limits of our current technology imposed by any theoretical considerations. Simply that any limits, theoretical, physical, psychological or implied, are just limits of our mind, materials and methods. As an engineer, I was taught that. It has held true.

Methods and materials - SWM has unknowingly supplied the perfect example applied to a problem...
SWM wrote:We already know that Honorverse is not using physical lenses for grasers--they are using gravitic lenses which can be manipulated as much as you want.

Perfect example of the aforementioned problem solving solution of "methods and materials."

What do you know. Some resourceful engineer has seen fit to utilize gravity as a material and then incorporate it into a method to solve a problem.

I cannot stress this enough...
"A good engineer understands the limits of his materials. The best engineer understands that the limit is the materials. The successful engineer designs in or designs out the limits of the materials by removing the limits of the mind. The one that gets the job is neither. The hire goes to the dyslexic engineer that sees no limits, named TIM. MIT."


Adam Gerrick understood it for certain.
.
Last edited by cthia on Thu May 07, 2015 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: long range laser
Post by cthia   » Thu May 07, 2015 4:52 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

cthia wrote:
kzt wrote:Simply not possible. We have a pretty darn good understanding of the properties of the elements and none of them have any potential for infinite strength at minimal mass. All of these are determined by the basic properties of the atoms and that isn't there. You can do pretty well with carbon, but not anywhere close.

There is no way we can claim that of elements not yet discovered. Unless you are willing to go on record and say that all of the Universe's elements have been discovered because they are all right here in the Sol system?

Remember, the universe is huge. But not so huge that it can't harbor rogue elements?

And yes, we can theorize properties of theoretical elements by position on the periodical chart. As foolproof as that is.

Relax wrote:
One, Yes, never say never. That being said:

Good Grief. Only elements we are unaware of are those higher on the periodic chart. Lets even grant you a boon that one will actually be stable. OF course they will be VERY dense high atomic atoms which intrinsically means that their ability to be clear to X-ray or gamma ray at high energy levels, let alone able to deflect such beams of energy resides below 0 degrees K as a percentage chance of ever happening.

Those will not be naturally occurring, so saying some "other" place will magically have new elements just waiting for Cthia to pick up is naive in the extreme. Theoretical physics works here just as well as some other place. If you want a bone, work the angle of super cold lattice structures. Odd things happen under these conditions. Of course how one could possibly keep such a lattice structure cold with no vibration(temperature fluctuation) while being used as a Laser violates 2nd law of thermo. Last I checked it is still undefeated just like father time.

I would imagine that that angle was being worked by the research I mentioned earlier of the company trying to control the development of the lattice structure and/or augmenting it's properties by intentionally introducing certain experimental impurities.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: long range laser
Post by Joat42   » Thu May 07, 2015 5:08 pm

Joat42
Admiral

Posts: 2162
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:01 am
Location: Sweden

Relax wrote:
Joat42 wrote:A question regarding lensing grasers:

Why can't part of the lensing be done with phased emitters (like in phased radar arrays)?


Lens requirements remain the same. What do you think we are doing today? :roll: It is the only way we are obtaining the power levels we are currently. Multispectrum frequency and opposing phase are being pumped through a lens. Each frequency interacts differently with Bragg filters etc and ultimately the lens in question. Combined via prism. Literally.

The problem with gamma ray is that no physical material actually interacts with said high frequency. It just passes through and if such a ray DOES hit a nucleus, bad things happen. KABOOM things due to heating as the gamma rays energy level is beyond the nucleus bond energy level. So, while it may be possible to build a gamma ray lens, it is going to be a one use deal.

I do have quite a good grasp of what happens when a high intensity energy beam interacts with matter. The whole point of a graser is to impart energy on a target which tells us that using a physical lens is kind of bad unless you use a lens made of handwavium.

I'm not particularly interested in how we make grasers today since the Honorverse grasers are using continuous power levels that are several magnitudes larger which tells us that the lensing can't be done with any known physical materials.

If you are able to lens arbitrarily with a phased emitter array there is no need for a physical lens at all. If you can't arbitrarily lens with the array you may possible just use it to aim the beam and then use a gravity lens to focus it.

A little physics exercise: what happens if you have a laser accelerated high intensity electron beam passing through an extremely powerful alternating magnetic field?

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
Top
Re: long range laser
Post by Relax   » Thu May 07, 2015 7:12 pm

Relax
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3214
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:18 pm

Spin aligns. IE phase aligns then becomes coherent and density throughput goes WAAAYYY up. It is what is going on in Bothell WA today.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
Top

Return to Honorverse