Sharonian Aircraft?

One wonders if spells can obscure the precog talent? Does the talent simply extrapolate on the individual's perceptions or does it extrapolate based on some objective reference?

Depending on how it works, cloaking spells that obscure perception might be totally useless to any variance of precog. The precog distant seer might be able to aim at targets he doesn't see. They might be warned by those with talents to make them aware of living beings about. Again assuming that the talents reflects awareness from some objective reference and not as another subjective sense/perception.

I look forward to seeing how our authors approach this question.

The Arcanan spells weaken, each time they cross a Gate
towards Sharona, remember.
Already, in Karys, they noticed this.

Sharonans settled Traisum significantly before Karys.
In fact, the outGate to Kelsayr was found first, so the
Karys Gate was found second (I. e. later).
Therefore Arcanan spells are, must be, noticibly weaker
in Traisum than in Karys, much less Arcanan worlds.

Did that affect the assault on Fort Selby?
It must have!
How?
I have thought of five (5) ways in which it did.
Unfortunately I may not write them here;
it would be Unlawful Fanfiction if I did;
but we have all read the same book.
I believe I may give one hint: the problem
was first noticed by the *gryphon-handlers.*

I expect that a Shield Spell on the dragons would have
had the same result. If for no other reason than that
Weber & Evans would have written it that way!

Also note that Shield Spells are rare.
IfIRC, Salby was the first time Arcana used one.
They might have used one (or more) at Hell's Gate Lines.
They might have used one at any Sharonan Fort.
The parties attacking Voices might have used one.
**They never did!**
Instead they relied on conventional means of surprise.
Even at Salby, the Shield-spell Mage had no backup.
When his spell was destroyed, the cavalry were naked.

Such Rare and Powerful Spells likely require Rare and
Powerful Mages to use them. The one with the Zydor
Dragoons might be the only such one in the entire AEF.
In which case his death is a major loss for it.
Even if the AEF has several, his loss is serious.

Howard True Map-addict

Mil-tech bard wrote:The Commander of 50 had sufficient mage talent to operate the spell from an object with a stored spell.

The issue with cloaking Dragons isn't whether the spell would stick to a dragons. It is whether

1. There are dragon riders who have sufficient mage talent of the right sort to operate the spell (All dragon riders have some mage talent in order to operate dragon control spellware), and

2. What sort of spell and dragon rider training limitations there are to employ such a spell.

For example, you may have to fly a close dragon formation to be within the cloak range.

This also means that if a far seer with future prediction talent penetrated the cloak, that anti-aircraft/dragon salvos are going to cause surprise and disproportionate casualties.

This sort of thing will drive mages to develop Farseer talent warning spellware, likely based on the war dragons innate dislike of those humans with talents.

This line of mage research is likely the basis of the Arcanian mage civilization picking up on the underlying universal laws and their flux based on human population content.

That is, of course, up to the authors, but it would work as far as a reader acceptable way to present said information.

(snip BRN reply - htm)

Mil-tech bard wrote:The issue for Arcanian dragons is that their lightning weapon ones possess a line of sight, speed of light, directed energy weapon with a field of engagement limited by Dragon neck/movement and an unknown range of engagement.

As a magical weapon, things like the physics of electrical grounding may not apply.

Had the Arcanians simply placed a cloaking spell over their dragons and spit lightning from a distance at the anti-aircraft defenses of Fort Salbey, the outcome of their attack could have been far different.

Sure, the Sharonan far seer broke through the Arcanian heavy cavalry cloaking spell...eventually.

The issue would be dragons move faster and could have gotten several passes with lightning weapons before the Sharonan's got effective gunfire barrages going, and hard maneuvering crossing targets are much more difficult to hit with anti-aircraft fire than closing ones.

Several cloaked shallow dive passes with lightning weapons would have cleared the battlements of Sharonan heavy automatic weapons before flame dragon and Griffin attacks.

Much of the ability of the Sharonan's to successfully resist was being forewarned and the Arcanians being surprised with the equivalent of .50 caliber machine guns and 40mm pom-poms.

Those will not be a surprise the next time Dragons and Griffins come over the wall.

Even at Salby, the Shield-spell Mage had no backup. When his spell was destroyed, the cavalry were naked.

Such Rare and Powerful Spells likely require Rare and
Powerful Mages to use them. The one with the Zydor
Dragoons might be the only such one in the entire AEF

Were that the case with the Zydor Dragoons, the mage who set off the spell would not be a leader of 50. He would have been more like a leader of _1000_.

Rare and Powerful Spellware does not necessarily require a Rare and Powerful Mages to activate it.

For instance, the short range lightning and fireball throwers of the Arcanians require only the slightest of mage gifts to operate.

Yet the charges on them come from spellware power charges originating from much more powerful mages.

And as yet, we have not seen what a mass effort spellware push from Arcania looks like, as the invasion of the Sharonan universes were done with Arcanian military forces at hand in one branch of Arcanian universes.

One cloaking spell in the Ft Salby attack may be just a logistical artifact of a pre-war draw down Arcanian military not unlike the draw down of war dragons.

Mil-tech Bard's points numbered for easy replies.

1 It is dubious to try to deduce rank (and pay-grade)
from a Specialist's duties.
A Mage might be a Warrant Officer,
or a Civilian Specialist.
He might indeed be recruited with offer of high rank,
or he might be a volunteer who starts at the bottom.
He might or might not also command a unit.

2 The Infantry Dragons are *not* Rare.
Each platoon has four of them, it seems.
Nor are they Powerful by Arcanan standards.
E. G. they are weaker than Field Dragons.

3 I agree with this point completely!

4 A Cloaking Spell requires less space than a Battle
Dragon, and eats *much* less!

HTM

Mil-tech bard wrote:below.

Even at Salby, the Shield-spell Mage had no backup. When his spell was destroyed, the cavalry were naked.

Such Rare and Powerful Spells likely require Rare and
Powerful Mages to use them. The one with the Zydor
Dragoons might be the only such one in the entire AEF

Mil-Tech Bard replied:
1 Were that the case with the Zydor Dragoons, the mage who set off the spell would not be a leader of 50. He would have been more like a leader of _1000_.

2 Rare and Powerful Spellware does not necessarily require a Rare and Powerful Mages to activate it.

For instance, the short range lightning and fireball throwers of the Arcanians require only the slightest of mage gifts to operate.

Yet the charges on them come from spellware power charges originating from much more powerful mages.

3 And as yet, we have not seen what a mass effort spellware push from Arcania looks like, as the invasion of the Sharonan universes were done with Arcanian military forces at hand in one branch of Arcanian universes.

4 One cloaking spell in the Ft Salby attack may be just a logistical artifact of a pre-war draw down Arcanian military not unlike the draw down of war dragons.

Howard,

Responses in order --

1. As we have gross rank inflation for dragon riding mage talents in the Arcanian military. There is text evidence for mage-power/rank in said organization.

2. The issue isn't that crew served mage weapons exist in the Arcanian military and are at platoon level. It is that individual Sharonan rifles outrange their effective range by hundreds of yards and are direct fire weapons. Field dragons would be bigger, and longer range _DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS_.

The implications of crew served machine guns and indirect fire 50mm-to-60mm mortars at Sharonan platoon level in anything approaching a platoon on platoon level meeting engagement fight, minus Arcanian dragon support, is very poor for the Arcanians.

This leaves out the whole dynamic of Sharonan teleport/telepathic communications talents combined with _indirect fire_ Sharonan field artillery.

3. Given 1 & 2 above, using magic to defeat Sharonan visual line of sight to get close enough to use magic direct fire weapons -- which dominate inside their range -- is going to be the key equalizer for Arcanian ground forces until they get a magical rifle equivalent.

The most important air power, and relatively quick to deploy, will be Sharonan observation balloons in the railway station defense mode.

Sharonan can deploy a lot more balloons with trained talent-less observers than they can far-seers, who will be much more useful on the front lines than in the line of supply protection role.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Mil-tech Bard's points numbered for easy replies.

1 It is dubious to try to deduce rank (and pay-grade)
from a Specialist's duties.
A Mage might be a Warrant Officer,
or a Civilian Specialist.
He might indeed be recruited with offer of high rank,
or he might be a volunteer who starts at the bottom.
He might or might not also command a unit.

2 The Infantry Dragons are *not* Rare.
Each platoon has four of them, it seems.
Nor are they Powerful by Arcanan standards.
E. G. they are weaker than Field Dragons.

3 I agree with this point completely!

4 A Cloaking Spell requires less space than a Battle
Dragon, and eats *much* less!

HTM

1 Please quote 2 or 3 examples of that textev.
I doubt that you mean the battle-dragon pilots who
are "Commanders-of-25" instead of Warrant Officers;
that is hardly Gross Inflation. I'm not sure that
they are "mages," either.

Vos & mul Gurthak, IfIRC, is the highest-ranking
Military Mage in the books.
Again, If I Recall Correctly, he achieved his rank the
Slow Way, starting as a Military Academy Cadet and
graduating as a Commander of Fifty, then getting
promotions one-at-a-time, at the (slow) peacetime rate.
BUT I also recall that he is *not* known as a Mage,
and so not ranked as such, so he should not be a part
of this discussion.

Halathyn and Gadrial are civilians.

Bos vos Hoven, the Mythalan gifted combat engineer,
is ranked as Lance. If that is Specialist rank,
then it is below a Javelin ... which is below a Sword.
Gifted Healer Morikan is a Sword.
So are two non-Gifted surgeons.

Gifted Combat Engineer Rahndar, 7th Zydar, is a Com-50.
Were he a Commander of a Thousand, then he would outrank the unit commander, Commander of 500 Urlan.

I cannot find whom you mean, though I am looking at
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3227

I'l respond to your 2 & 3 later.

HTM

Mil-tech bard wrote:Howard,

Responses in order --

1. As we have gross rank inflation for dragon riding mage talents in the Arcanian military. There is text evidence for mage-power/rank in said organization.

2. The issue isn't that crew served mage weapons exist in the Arcanian military and are at platoon level. It is that individual Sharonan rifles outrange their effective range by hundreds of yards and are direct fire weapons. Field dragons would be bigger, and longer range _DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS_.

The implications of crew served machine guns and indirect fire 50mm-to-60mm mortars at Sharonan platoon level in anything approaching a platoon on platoon level meeting engagement fight, minus Arcanian dragon support, is very poor for the Arcanians.

This leaves out the whole dynamic of Sharonan teleport/telepathic communications talents combined with _indirect fire_ Sharonan field artillery.

3. Given 1 & 2 above, using magic to defeat Sharonan visual line of sight to get close enough to use magic direct fire weapons -- which dominate inside their range -- is going to be the key equalizer for Arcanian ground forces until they get a magical rifle equivalent.

The most important air power, and relatively quick to deploy, will be Sharonan observation balloons in the railway station defense mode.

Sharonan can deploy a lot more balloons with trained talent-less observers than they can far-seers, who will be much more useful on the front lines than in the line of supply protection role.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Mil-tech Bard's points numbered for easy replies.

1 It is dubious to try to deduce rank (and pay-grade)
from a Specialist's duties.
A Mage might be a Warrant Officer,
or a Civilian Specialist.
He might indeed be recruited with offer of high rank,
or he might be a volunteer who starts at the bottom.
He might or might not also command a unit.

2 The Infantry Dragons are *not* Rare.
Each platoon has four of them, it seems.
Nor are they Powerful by Arcanan standards.
E. G. they are weaker than Field Dragons.

3 & 4 snipped, as no longer part of this discussion.

HTM

2 & 3. Are we arguing or agreeing? I've lost track.

Jasek compared Infantry with Field Dragons when he
looked at Chalgyn's stockade, opining that it would
block his InDgs but would be penetrated by F Ds.
Later we saw I Ds blocked by a layer or two of clothing
... or leaves.
Neither Rare nor Powerful.

With your Mil-tech opinions, I agree.
It will be DW's opinions which matter.

I hope that those Sharonan Observation Balloons
have AA guns to protect them!

HTM

Mil-tech bard wrote:Howard,

Responses in order --

1. [snip - I replied upthread.]

2. The issue isn't that crew served mage weapons exist
in the Arcanian military and are at platoon level.
It is that individual Sharonan rifles outrange
their effective range by hundreds of yards and are
direct fire weapons. Field dragons would be bigger,
and longer range _DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS_.

The implications of crew served machine guns and
indirect fire 50mm-to-60mm mortars at Sharonan platoon
level in anything approaching a platoon on platoon
level meeting engagement fight, minus Arcanian
dragon support, is very poor for the Arcanians.

This leaves out the whole dynamic of Sharonan teleport/telepathic communications talents combined with _indirect fire_ Sharonan field artillery.

3. Given 1 & 2 above, using magic to defeat Sharonan visual line of sight to get close enough to use magic direct fire weapons -- which dominate inside their range -- is going to be the key equalizer for Arcanian ground forces until they get a magical rifle equivalent.

The most important air power, and relatively quick to deploy, will be Sharonan observation balloons in the railway station defense mode.

Sharonan can deploy a lot more balloons with trained talent-less observers than they can far-seers, who will be much more useful on the front lines than in the line of supply protection role.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Mil-tech Bard's points numbered for easy replies.

1 snip - htm

2 The Infantry Dragons are *not* Rare.
Each platoon has four of them, it seems.
Nor are they Powerful by Arcanan standards.
E. G. they are weaker than Field Dragons.

3 & 4 snip.

HTM

Chalgyn's stockade was meant to keep out wild animals, other claim jumping survey teams and possibly bandits. It was by no means a Sharonan military fortification.

The issue with field dragons penetration is that _battle dragon fireball breath weapons_ demonstrated a substantial lack of penetration on Sharonan bunkers at the Hells Gate portal.

It took gas weapons to kill the Sharonan military occupants.

Sharonan automatic weapons were not deployed for an air threat at Hells Gate nor anywhere prior to Ft Salby.

This is no longer the case anywhere in the various Sharonan military organizations, thanks to the Sharonan voice network.

It hardly matters how wide spread infantry and field dragons are if they have little or no effect on Sharonan crew served machine gun bunkers.

And note, we have not seen Sharonan artillery delivered gas shells. (That we have not seen them does not mean they don't exist.)

One of several issues for Arcanian railway raiders is they cannot tell how far any Sharonan observation balloon can see nor indeed whether they are crewed or not.

Nor do they know if it matters with Sharonan far seers talents being invisible observers at a distance.

And further note that the forensic talents that can see the recent past are an even graver threat to Arcanian stay behind forces once they get on their trail.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:2 & 3. Are we arguing or agreeing? I've lost track.

Jasek compared Infantry with Field Dragons when he looked at Chalgyn's stockade, opining that it would block his InDgs but would be penetrated by F Ds. Later we saw I Ds blocked by a layer or two of clothing
... or leaves.

Neither Rare nor Powerful.

With your Mil-tech opinions, I agree.
It will be DW's opinions which matter.

I hope that those Sharonan Observation Balloons have AA guns to protect them!

HTM

Now it is clear: we are agreeing.

HTM

Mil-tech bard wrote:Chalgyn's stockade was meant to keep out wild animals, other claim jumping survey teams and possibly bandits. It was by no means a Sharonan military fortification.

The issue with field dragons penetration is that _battle dragon fireball breath weapons_ demonstrated a substantial lack of penetration on Sharonan bunkers at the Hells Gate portal.

It took gas weapons to kill the Sharonan military occupants.

Sharonan automatic weapons were not deployed for an air threat at Hells Gate nor anywhere prior to Ft Salby.

This is no longer the case anywhere in the various Sharonan military organizations, thanks to the Sharonan voice network.

It hardly matters how wide spread infantry and field dragons are if they have little or no effect on Sharonan crew served machine gun bunkers.

And note, we have not seen Sharonan artillery delivered gas shells. (That we have not seen them does not mean they don't exist.)

One of several issues for Arcanian railway raiders is they cannot tell how far any Sharonan observation balloon can see nor indeed whether they are crewed or not.

Nor do they know if it matters with Sharonan far seers talents being invisible observers at a distance.

And further note that the forensic talents that can see the recent past are an even graver threat to Arcanian stay behind forces once they get on their trail.

m-t b

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:2 & 3. Are we arguing or agreeing? I've lost track.

[snip]
HTM

Personally I think the big question should be how long before the Arcanian's can devolop comparable firearms to the Sharonian's. I would think the first batches of captured Sharonian weapons would be arriving at some forward R&D bases quite soon if they haven't already. Firearms are also a very simple concept to mimic one you know the components, i.e. a barrel, projectile, and some sort of propellant(contained fireball spell). A heavy transport Dragon able to rapidly redeploy long range heavy artillery could be a serious threat, not to mention battle dragons with the addition of machine gun turrets would outclass any aircraft Sharona could develop in the near future.